Kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament

[Ockham]

The CITH thread was approximately forty pages of debate. On the one side was the traditional with sound doctrine, teaching, quotes from popes and saints. On the other side was the liberal/progessive/sandalistas/Age of Aquarius/Baby Boomer/ME Generation position of “it’s in the GIRM”. I see no point in continuing this debate as it closely relates to the other unless you have something other than that particular incessant refrain. Come up with a sound argument against kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament and I’ll discuss it with you. To constantly cite the GIRM contradicts your premise as it wasn’t in there when the rebelliousness of the sixties broke out under the disguise of “spirit of V2”. You can’t have it both ways and I won’t dignify that position any further by responding to it. Ball’s in your court.

 

[otjm]

The CITH thread was approximately forty pages of debate. On the one side was the traditional with sound doctrine, teaching, quotes from popes and saints. On the other side was the liberal/progessive/sandalistas/Age of Aquarius/Baby Boomer/ME Generation position of “it’s in the GIRM”. I see no point in continuing this debate as it closely relates to the other unless you have something other than that particular incessant refrain. Come up with a sound argument against kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament and I’ll discuss it with you. To constantly cite the GIRM contradicts your premise as it wasn’t in there when the rebelliousness of the sixties broke out under the disguise of “spirit of V2”. You can’t have it both ways and I won’t dignify that position any further by responding to it. Ball’s in your court.

This is not about kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament. It is about obeying the rightfully chosen leaders of the Church, The ball is in my court? Good, I will take it and go home, as you do not want to play the game.

I choose to obey my bishop and the Pope. When it is explained to you why they may have changed the rules, you go back to non sequiturs as if they are a response. That is typical of someone who has nothing of value to say, but won’t concede the point.

But I don’t need you to concede the point. You speak of rebelliousness of the 60’s, as if that had anything to do with the discussion; but it is your inability to follow meekly and humbly the rules of the Church which show the true rebelliousness. When the Church said “kneel” I knelt and didn’t suggest they were wrong. When they said “stand” I stood and didn’t suggest they were wrong. I was not anointed expert; you seem to think you were. Sorry, but I don’t think you were. If you wish to stop posting, that’s fine, as you have become far too tedious.

You don’t want an answer other than to have someone say “you are right and the Church is wrong”. Anything else you simply ignore. But then, you have some good company in those who want to tell the Church how to be Church. They just make the news a little bit more often.

 

[Ockham]

This is not about kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament. It is about obeying the rightfully chosen leaders of the Church, The ball is in my court? Good, I will take it and go home, as you do not want to play the game.

Bye bye.

 

[diggerdomer]

The CITH thread was approximately forty pages of debate. On the one side was the traditional with sound doctrine, teaching, quotes from popes and saints. On the other side was

you

 

[Ockham]

Cardinal Cañizares: As is known, the current universal discipline of the Church requires that as a norm Communion is distributed into the mouth of the faithful. Then there is an indult that allows, at the request of episcopates, to distribute Communion on the palm of the hand also. This is worth remembering. The pope, then, to give greater prominence to the due reverence with which we must approach the Body of Christ, wished that the faithful who receive Communion from his hands do so on their knees. This seemed to me a beautiful and edifying initiative of the Bishop of Rome. The present norms do not require anyone to do the same. But neither do they prevent it.

April 2009
adoremus.org/0409CDW_Kneeling.html

“Every Knee Must Bend”
No bodily posture so clearly expresses the soul’s interior reverence before God as the act of kneeling. Reciprocally, the posture of kneeling reinforces and deepens the soul’s attitude of reverence.

Jesus knelt to pray in the Garden of Olives on the eve of His death (Luke 22:41). Stephen knelt down to pray for his persecutors as they prepared to kill him (Acts 7:60). At Joppa Peter knelt down next to the corpse of Tabitha to pray before calling her back to life (Acts 9:40). Paul, after giving his final farewell to the elders of the church of Ephesus, “… knelt down with them all and prayed… Then they escorted him to the ship.” (Acts 20:36, 38)

John R. Keating
Bishop of Arlington

Psalms
Chapter 95
1
1 Come, let us sing joyfully to the LORD; cry out to the rock of our salvation.
2
Let us greet him with a song of praise, joyfully sing out our psalms.
3
For the LORD is the great God, the great king over all gods,
4
Whose hand holds the depths of the earth; who owns the tops of the mountains.
5
The sea and dry land belong to God, who made them, formed them by hand.
6
**Enter, let us bow down in worship; let us kneel before the LORD who made us. **7

For this is our God, whose people we are, God’s well-tended flock. Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
8
2 Do not harden your hearts as at Meribah, as on the day of Massah in the desert.
9
There your ancestors tested me; they tried me though they had seen my works.
10
**Forty years I loathed that generation; I said: “This people’s heart goes astray; they do not know my ways.” **11
3 Therefore I swore in my anger: “They shall never enter my rest.”

Forty years…hmmm…

 

[Ockham]

“Even after Daniel heard that this law had been signed, he continued his custom of going home to kneel in prayer and give thanks to God in the upper chamber three times a day, with the windows open towards Jerusalem” Daniel 6:11

"He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 28: 39

"When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at the knees of the Jesus and said, “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.” Luke 5:8

“Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, “Lord do not hold this sin against them”; and when he said this, he fell asleep.” Acts 7: 60

 

[Ockham]

There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. “It doesn’t suit our culture”, they say (which culture?) “It’s not right for a grown man to do this – he should face God on his feet”. Or again: “It’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more”.
If we look at history, we can see that the Greeks and Romans rejected kneeling. In view of the squabbling, partisan deities described in mythology, this attitude was thoroughly justified. It was only too obvious that these gods were not God, even if you were dependent on their capricious power and had to make sure that, whenever possible, you enjoyed their favor. And so they said that kneeling was unworthy of a free man, unsuitable for the culture of Greece, something the barbarians went in for. Plutarch and Theophrastus regarded kneeling as an expression of superstition.

Aristotle called it a barbaric form of behavior (cf. Rhetoric 1361 a 36). Saint Augustine agreed with him in a certain respect: the false gods were only the masks of demons, who subjected men to the worship of money and to self-seeking, thus making them “servile” and superstitious. He said that the humility of Christ and His love, which went as far as the Cross, have freed us from these powers. We now kneel before that humility. The kneeling of Christians is not a form of inculturation into existing customs. It is quite the opposite, an expression of Christian culture, which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God.

**Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. **The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

From Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy

p.s. Protestants don’t kneel either.

 

[Javl]

Unless it’s an edict, cannon law, or dogma, issued by the Magisterium against kneeling,
I will always kneel ( If I am able to ) before my Lord and My God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Intention and motivation, for a Christian outward action must follow from inward disposition. Not vice versa - Jesus left this to the Pharisee.

 

[StillWondering]

The CITH thread was approximately forty pages of debate. On the one side was the traditional with sound doctrine, teaching, quotes from popes and saints. On the other side was the liberal/progessive/sandalistas/Age of Aquarius/Baby Boomer/ME Generation position of “it’s in the GIRM”. I see no point in continuing this debate as it closely relates to the other unless you have something other than that particular incessant refrain. Come up with a sound argument against kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament and I’ll discuss it with you. To constantly cite the GIRM contradicts your premise as it wasn’t in there when the rebelliousness of the sixties broke out under the disguise of “spirit of V2”. You can’t have it both ways and I won’t dignify that position any further by responding to it. Ball’s in your court.

Regardless of what is said, I think we should remember that kneeling for the belief that kneeling in itself is special beyond the fact that we kneel as a consequence of being in awe of God, then this is superstition. I am not saying the poster I quoted or the person he is debating is committing superstition – I would not know from what I have read.

I just want to remind myself and others like me that a gesture only has meaning as a physical manifestation of the inward intention. Anything more said of that would be getting into sketchy area unless these gestures were instituted by God himself for a particular purpose. Sex has a very real physical manifestation for example. Another and in a different context is the confection of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood (though I do not honestly know much about this topic).

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I would teach my kids to genuflect when passing the tabernacle and hope that overtime they will develop the spiritual understanding to is the source of this gesture. But if I do not catechize them correctly and they begin to think somehow there is something more to this genuflecting that is not appropriate, such as a magical effect or a way to score brownie points with God, then I am teaching them superstition.

That being said, I love to kneel in front of the Blessed Sacrament. But when receiving the Christ in the Eucharist, I do what the Church whose authority is given by Christ to direct my actions. Whether we had communion rails for hundreds of years or only five days, I would expect that at one point or another in our tradition before our recent times there was not communion rails. Remember how the original disciples celebrated. Was it not in their homes or in the catacombs in hiding. It could be very conceivable that people knelled as well as people not kneeling.

 

[diggerdomer]

p.s. Protestants don’t kneel either.

Some do

 

[paperwight]

Some do

Yes, indeed they do - Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans, to name but a few (millions) for a start.

But, by now, we should be used to some posters not having a clear grasp of the facts. Or indeed, of not having the willingness to accept them once pointed out to them.

 

[otjm]

We seem to be wandering off topic, and that may be why some people ahve become so vociferous about kneeling.

The issue, if you bother to read the OP, is not about kneeling. It is about genuflecting as one approaches whoever is distributing the Eucharist. The answer is specific to the GIRM, which says that we are to give a reverence to the Eucharist and that is done by a bow of the head.

Lest anyone think that somehow there is a move afoot to do away with kneeling (as opposed to genuflecting), then it would do well to recognize that in the US we also have rules which are not the universal norm; we kneel for a longer period of time through the Eucharistic prayer, etc. than is the univeral norm in the Roman rite.

No one is suggesting that we not kneel in front of the Eucharist ever. In fact, the discussion is about genuflecting, not about kneeling.

The bishops have determined that we stand to receive Communion. The best information that I can find is that altar rails came into existence and use in the Roman rite in the 16th century (and everyone is welcome to cite contrary information), making receivng Communion kneeling at an altar rail a rather later innovation in the Mass. That does not mean that it has no value, purpose or reason; but the change to standing is perhaps of longer total duration in the Church than kneeling. In any event, the thread is not about kneeling for Communion but of genuflecting as one approaches the Eucharist.

And for all the heat that has been raised or may be raised about genuflecting before the Eucharist, I have yet to see anyone who does this while approaching the Host do so as they pass the Cup. If it is so important that they do so when approaching the Host, why not also when passing in front of the Cup?

Perhaps because the genuflection is upon approach, and one is not approaching the Cup but rather passing by? those who receive from the Cup are also supposed to make a reverence by bowing the head.

 

[Ockham]

**“Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. **The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.”

From Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy

“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”

St. Jerome (his feastday today)

 

[maryjk]

And for all the heat that has been raised or may be raised about genuflecting before the Eucharist, I have yet to see anyone who does this while approaching the Host do so as they pass the Cup. If it is so important that they do so when approaching the Host, why not also when passing in front of the Cup?

Perhaps because the genuflection is upon approach, and one is not approaching the Cup but rather passing by? those who receive from the Cup are also supposed to make a reverence by bowing the head.

I have always wondered this. Why do the people that genuflect for the Host, pass by the Cup without a first glance, let alone a second? I sit in the front pew and I have never seen a person genuflect toward the Cup but have seen numerous people genuflect toward the Host.

 

[palmas85]

I have always wondered this. Why do the people that genuflect for the Host, pass by the Cup without a first glance, let alone a second? I sit in the front pew and I have never seen a person genuflect toward the Cup but have seen numerous people genuflect toward the Host.

Oh I can answer that one. Lack of proper catechisis and proper reverence pure and simple. When the Vatican ffirst came out with permission for the laity to receive under both species, they put forth very stringent requirements. Part of that was proper catechisis of the faithful in what they were doing and how it was to be done… Sad to say, such catechisis is the exception rather than the norm.

And as an aisde, at most parishes I’ve been to, people neither, nod their heads bow or genuflect at receiving or when reciting the Creed.

Lack of catechisis and lack of reverence.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

[otjm]

Oh I can answer that one. Lack of proper catechisis and proper reverence pure and simple. When the Vatican ffirst came out with permission for the laity to receive under both species, they put forth very stringent requirements. Part of that was proper catechisis of the faithful in what they were doing and how it was to be done… Sad to say, such catechisis is the exception rather than the norm.

And as an aisde, at most parishes I’ve been to, people neither, nod their heads bow or genuflect at receiving or when reciting the Creed.

Lack of catechisis and lack of reverence.

Nothing more nothing less.

In parishes that I have seen, most people bow, but they do it to the Host by bwoing to the back of the person receiving. They seem to be in a slight hurry. Most likely, they were catchized but not necessarily well, or long ago enough that they have forgotten some of the details.

 

[diggerdomer]

Lack of catechisis and lack of reverence.

Nothing more nothing less

I definitely agree lack of catechesis.

I don’t agree we can presume lack of reverence. I assume people are reverent, however they understand that, unless they do something clearly indicating the contrary.

 

[ncjohn]

I have always wondered this. Why do the people that genuflect for the Host, pass by the Cup without a first glance, let alone a second? I sit in the front pew and I have never seen a person genuflect toward the Cup but have seen numerous people genuflect toward the Host.

What I had heard was that once one has received the host one is carrying the Body of Christ and would not not bow or genuflect again before the cup. It is the same reasoning as is used for not genuflecting again if you cross the center aisle on your way back to your pew. I don’t know if that is correct or not but I assume I am not the only one who has heard that so it may well have something to do with why at least some don’t do it. I do receive both so it isn’t an issue for me though I admit that I don’t bow again before receiving the cup either.

I think for some it is also a dislike for communion being offered under both species and essentially a “refusal” to acknowledge the cup, or a denial of its need or legitimacy. I don’t know that for a fact as I’ve never heard anyone state it explicitly but I have heard people discuss the “need” in very negative terms and have noticed that they indeed just walk right past it without any acknowledgment.

 

[otjm]

What I had heard was that once one has received the host one is carrying the Body of Christ and would not not bow or genuflect again before the cup. It is the same reasoning as is used for not genuflecting again if you cross the center aisle on your way back to your pew. I don’t know if that is correct or not but I assume I am not the only one who has heard that so it may well have something to do with why at least some don’t do it. I do receive both so it isn’t an issue for me though I admit that I don’t bow again before receiving the cup either.

I think for some it is also a dislike for communion being offered under both species and essentially a “refusal” to acknowledge the cup, or a denial of its need or legitimacy. I don’t know that for a fact as I’ve never heard anyone state it explicitly but I have heard people discuss the “need” in very negative terms and have noticed that they indeed just walk right past it without any acknowledgment.

From the GIRM: "160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood." Underlining is mine.

It is silent as to what one does, if both Species are offered but one only receives one, when passing by the other. From that one could elgitimately presume that no bow is required since the term “when receiving” is used consistently.