Kneeling during the Consecration

[ND_Mike]

At our dorm masses at Notre Dame we don’t kneel during the Consecration. I know this practice is unallowed. I asked one of the priests in my dorm where we were granted permission to do this; he replied that the Bishop gave them permission. The reason we don’t kneel is because there are no kneelers in some of the dorms. I have Jimmy Akin’s Mass Confusion, and I read a question on this topic on his website. Mr. Akin said only the USCCB can give such permission, and that not having kneelers is not a valid reason. I brought this up to my rector. When I stated this I said that I was curious why we didn’t kneel and that I found this information. I told him I was shocked. I tried not to sound like I was being pushy. I showed him that we could stand if there was no room to kneel. He said he saw no difference in lack of room for kneeling versus the lack of kneelers. He said he had been in plenty of faith communities that did this same practice. I said that I believed him, but I was wondering where the provision was to allow this. He then seemed to get angry and asked me why I don’t like standing. He said he’d look this up and get back to me, but I’m not holding my breath. I just want everyone to experience the Mass the way it should be. It just feels so much better when the Mass is done correctly. What should I do?

 

[Podo2004]

ND Mike:

At our dorm masses at Notre Dame we don’t kneel during the Consecration. I know this practice is unallowed. I asked one of the priests in my dorm where we were granted permission to do this; he replied that the Bishop gave them permission. The reason we don’t kneel is because there are no kneelers in some of the dorms. I have Jimmy Akin’s Mass Confusion, and I read a question on this topic on his website. Mr. Akin said only the USCCB can give such permission, and that not having kneelers is not a valid reason. I brought this up to my rector. When I stated this I said that I was curious why we didn’t kneel and that I found this information. I told him I was shocked. I tried not to sound like I was being pushy. I showed him that we could stand if there was no room to kneel. He said he saw no difference in lack of room for kneeling versus the lack of kneelers. He said he had been in plenty of faith communities that did this same practice. I said that I believed him, but I was wondering where the provision was to allow this. He then seemed to get angry and asked me why I don’t like standing. He said he’d look this up and get back to me, but I’m not holding my breath. I just want everyone to experience the Mass the way it should be. It just feels so much better when the Mass is done correctly. What should I do?

Keep standing, after all what is the problem with standing especially if your parish got permission?
Podo

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

Unfortunitly, it’s a sign of the modernist times. The same is being done by order of the Bishop’s office in Orlando from what I have heard. However, the Mass I attend, the only one’s that stand are the priests and the alter boys.

 

[bear06]

Podo2004:

Keep standing, after all what is the problem with standing especially if your parish got permission?
Podo

No, no, no, you are only to follow if it is in communion with Rome. The bishop can give permission left and right for abuses to occur but we don’t have to follow here. You are to follow the bishop wherever he is in communion with Rome. If you know it is a liturgical abuse ACCORDING TO ROME, you don’t have to follow it! Kneel away!

I’d contact your local bishop by letter and see what his response is and then forward them off to Rome to the Congregation for Divine Worship and copies sent to the Apostolic Nuncio.

 

[Crusader]

ND Mike:

At our dorm masses at Notre Dame we don’t kneel during the Consecration. I know this practice is unallowed. I asked one of the priests in my dorm where we were granted permission to do this; he replied that the Bishop gave them permission. The reason we don’t kneel is because there are no kneelers in some of the dorms. I have Jimmy Akin’s Mass Confusion, and I read a question on this topic on his website. Mr. Akin said only the USCCB can give such permission, and that not having kneelers is not a valid reason. I brought this up to my rector. When I stated this I said that I was curious why we didn’t kneel and that I found this information. I told him I was shocked. I tried not to sound like I was being pushy. I showed him that we could stand if there was no room to kneel. He said he saw no difference in lack of room for kneeling versus the lack of kneelers. He said he had been in plenty of faith communities that did this same practice. I said that I believed him, but I was wondering where the provision was to allow this. He then seemed to get angry and asked me why I don’t like standing. He said he’d look this up and get back to me, but I’m not holding my breath. I just want everyone to experience the Mass the way it should be. It just feels so much better when the Mass is done correctly. What should I do?

He’s mistaken or worse…

I would simply kneel. Don’t make a big deal out of it – don’t try to be a martyr. Just kneel – even if you have to bring your own little pad to kneel on.

 

[Jim_ov_Cov]

Kneel before your God who is so outraged by the sins of ungrateful mankind.

 

[kmktexas]

Kneel and if possible find some like minded friends, sit in the front and kneel together.

I moved a few years ago and our parish doesn’t have kneelers. The congregation just stood. I knelt and so did a few more families. Little by little, more people knelt. Our parish has a lot of new parishioners. One day I spoke to Father. It was just before Advent. He told me that he was going to use the beginning of Advent to make sure everyone knelt for the Consecration. He made an announcement and that was that.

We have the same issue with the Agnus Dei. Our diocese kneels but our parish does not. Unlike the Consecration, Father says he doesn’t want to enforce kneeling for the Agnus Dei. The universal Church stands anyway. But there are a bunch of us who kneel anyway. It is kind of like a wave sometimes. Some Sundays virtually everyone does it. Other Sundays, only a handful.

Good Luck.

 

[pipoluojo]

kmktexas:

Kneel and if possible find some like minded friends, sit in the front and kneel together.

I agree with you. Many good things are possible if someone would have the courage and persistence in being different. There are many who feel like you but are ( patiently?, cowardly? indifferently?) waiting for someone to show the way. Must true worship be all fun and comfort?

 

[katherine2]

bear06:

No, no, no, you are only to follow if it is in communion with Rome. The bishop can give permission left and right for abuses to occur but we don’t have to follow here. You are to follow the bishop wherever he is in communion with Rome. If you know it is a liturgical abuse ACCORDING TO ROME, you don’t have to follow it! Kneel away!

I’d contact your local bishop by letter and see what his response is and then forward them off to Rome to the Congregation for Divine Worship and copies sent to the Apostolic Nuncio.

You are very ill-informed. It is not the universal law of the Church to kneel for the canon; it is a particular law for the United States. Yes, bishops and even pastors have the right to invite the congregation to stand if the physical surrounding or long standing custom suggest so.

 

[Little_Irish]

I think some parishes, dioceses are taking the liberty by using what should be the exception and making it the norm. The changes in the GIRM rules have brought chaos to the Church when it was supposed to restore uniformity. I pray that the bishops will do something to rectify this. In our church we must stand after the Lamb of God and remain standing until all have received the Eucharist. This is so we do not have private inclinations but are in communion with the Body. We are in communion with the Body just by receiving the Body. After all have recieved then we can pray privately but are often interupted by announcements from the pulpit.

 

[msproule]

katherine2:

You are very ill-informed. It is not the universal law of the Church to kneel for the canon; it is a particular law for the United States. Yes, bishops and even pastors have the right to invite the congregation to stand if the physical surrounding or long standing custom suggest so.

Katherine,

Kneeling during the CONSECRATION is Universal Law. The United States exceptions are for kneeling during the entire Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei. Furthermore, bishops have the authority to make modifications (but only where indicated in the GIRM). Parish priests do not have this authority.

Michael

 

[ND_Mike]

kmktexas:

Kneel and if possible find some like minded friends, sit in the front and kneel together.

That’s a good idea. Only my friend and I have been kneeling during our dorm Masses. I know there are a few of my friends in my dorm that probably feel the same way. This week I’ll just ask them their opinion on the matter and if they want to kneel I’ll support it. Otherwise, I could invite some of the wonderful people I’ve met at daily Mass in the Basilica.

 

[chicago]

I’d suggest a more innovative approach. If his justification essentially amounted to “well, we don’t have kneelers”, then offer to help raise the money to get kneelers. This way you won’t seem as if you are some pushy radical, but just a dynamic congregant who wants to help out and get things done for the betterment of the church and community. The priest might actually come to respect and apprecaite that.

 

[Crusader]

katherine2:

You are very ill-informed. It is not the universal law of the Church to kneel for the canon; it is a particular law for the United States. Yes, bishops and even pastors have the right to invite the congregation to stand if the physical surrounding or long standing custom suggest so.

You are mistaken.

The only valid reasons for not kneeling during the consecration in the Latin Rite in the USA is:

1.) An individual is unable to stand due to health constraints.

2.) There is not enough physical room to kneel.

 

[bear06]

katherine2:

You are very ill-informed. It is not the universal law of the Church to kneel for the canon; it is a particular law for the United States. Yes, bishops and even pastors have the right to invite the congregation to stand if the physical surrounding or long standing custom suggest so.

Since I’m on the west coast, this has already been answered. I’m just interested to know where are you getting this information?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Hey Mike, what dorm are you in? I’m over in Dillon but I haven’t been to Dillon Mass in quite a while because the abuses are horrendous and I can’t bear to watch it. Whatever dorm I do go to, though, I kneel during the consecration. Although I have heard that we have some sort of indult to stand, I figure that since indults only grant permission for exception - thus mandating them - nobody can force me to stand. I also find that when I kneel most of the other students will kneel as well.

For those of you not here at the university, it is my understanding that the bishop gave permission to remodel our chapels without kneelers because of space considerations. We could have more room for people or we could have kneelers, but not both. I don’t totally buy this, but it’s the official line.

 

[ND_Mike]

Andreas Hofer:

Hey Mike, what dorm are you in? I’m over in Dillon but I haven’t been to Dillon Mass in quite a while because the abuses are horrendous and I can’t bear to watch it. Whatever dorm I do go to, though, I kneel during the consecration. Although I have heard that we have some sort of indult to stand, I figure that since indults only grant permission for exception - thus mandating them - nobody can force me to stand. I also find that when I kneel most of the other students will kneel as well.

For those of you not here at the university, it is my understanding that the bishop gave permission to remodel our chapels without kneelers because of space considerations. We could have more room for people or we could have kneelers, but not both. I don’t totally buy this, but it’s the official line.

I’m at Carroll Hall. We actually have kneelers in our Chapel. We just choose not to use them since the bishop gave the University permission to stand. The problem I have is that there are kneelers and that there is plenty of room to kneel. It’s not as if we’re packed like sardines. The only reason I attend my dorm Mass is to try to participate in our dorm community. Personally, I enjoy Mass at the Basilica much more. Daily Mass there is also very nice.

 

[kmktexas]

msproule:

Katherine,

Kneeling during the CONSECRATION is Universal Law. The United States exceptions are for kneeling during the entire Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei. Furthermore, bishops have the authority to make modifications (but only where indicated in the GIRM). Parish priests do not have this authority.

Michael

Here is the GIRM section:

43 The faithful should stand from the beginning of the opening song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel reading; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the invitatory, Pray that our sacrifice…, before the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph.

They should sit during the readings before the gospel reading and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the preparation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of religious silence after communion.

**They should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented by reasons of health, lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason. However, those who do not kneel at the consecration ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. **
But it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and posture in the Order of the Mass to the customs and reasonable traditions of the people according to the norm of law. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, this is laudably retained.

Kneeling for the Consecration is in the common GIRM for the whole church. The US has particular law that has more specific timing than most countries spcecifying both when to kneel (after the Sanctus) and when to rise (after the Great Amen). While it is possible that a Bishops’ conference has requested a particular law to be approved that everyone remain standing (per the provisions above), I have not heard of any country where this has been asked. Maybe someone else here knows of one.

As an example, in Mexico and the countries I have visited in South America some people kneel after the Sanctus, some wait for the bells, some wait until just before the words of consecration but everyone who is able is kneeling for the consecration itself.

 

[matt1618]

Little Irish:

In our church we must stand after the Lamb of God and remain standing until all have received the Eucharist. This is so we do not have private inclinations but are in communion with the Body. We are in communion with the Body just by receiving the Body. After all have recieved then we can pray privately but are often interupted by announcements from the pulpit.

The tradition of the parish I go to is to stand also. I used to kneel out of respect and reverence and to be an example to the congregation to encourage them to kneel also. But lately I’ve been standing so as not to show any disunity in the faithful to a visitor of another faith who may be there. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us that God doesn’t care about our physical postures, it is the posture of our hearts that he’s concerned with (if our physical postures aren’t natural extensions of the posture of our heart then they are in vain). So now I stand in order to maintain unity while my heart lies prostrate on the floor. It is a little painful but it’s a small cross to bear and forces me to think about what is happening on the altar. And I still can be a witness to reverence and allow the posture of my heart to reveal itself by bowing after the words of consecration and fixing my hands. Hope this helps.

 

[kmktexas]

Since I am in Venezuela where they only kneel for the consecration (and the final blessing) I understand how you feel. I just offer it up.

I could see a problem is I was in a parish that wasn’t kneeling after the Agnes Dei but was in a diocese where kneeling was the norm set by the Bishop. That choice of that particular posture is specifically supposed to be by diocese and not by individual parish. I would be really torn between obeying the priest and keeping unity or obeying the Bishop.