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mrose1
Guest
There is also a (in my mind at least) very legitimate debate about whether the USCCB norm in question is descriptive or prescriptive. That is, they could say the “norm is standing” meaning that in most churches in the US of A, most people receive standing (which I assume is factual), or the “norm is standing” which means people should receive standing, though they may legally kneel.
In any case, there is not a moral equivalence at all between receiving on the tongue versus in the hand (and I mean moral equivalence in the technical sense, not with respect to the “morality” of one person or another choosing to receive one way or another). And in the west, there is such a long tradition of receiving kneeling that it should enjoy the status it has long had.
In any case, there is not a moral equivalence at all between receiving on the tongue versus in the hand (and I mean moral equivalence in the technical sense, not with respect to the “morality” of one person or another choosing to receive one way or another). And in the west, there is such a long tradition of receiving kneeling that it should enjoy the status it has long had.
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zab
Guest
I have never disagreed with that. All that I am saying is that sometimes it is more out of an act of humility (to go against one’s own inclinations) that one follows the norm that has been set in order to do as we have been asked to do and to maintain unity of posture.
From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal 2011
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Will_S
Guest
Quote:
Thus implying that standing for Holy Communion is 1) a rubric and 2) obeying this ‘rubric’ (and thus standing) is the will of God.
I disagree with both 1 & 2 as I have made clear.
For what it’s worth, I do sometimes receive standing on the very rare occasion that I go to an OF Mass, but I have never and will never receive in the hand, or from an EMHC.
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anp1215
Guest
This makes me sad. If (God forbid) you became infirm and had to live in a care facility, what if the only person who could/would bring you the Eucharist was an EMHC? Would you refuse and go without the Eucharist then?
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zab
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OK so shoot me for writing the wrong word, if that is the case. It seems that you are picking nats and swallowing camels. I should have written the word “norm”. But are you suggesting that it is not the will of God to follow the norm that our bishops have set?
I receive Communion on the tongue while standing, but would gladly kneel if a kneeler was provided. I cannot not easily get down or up to keep the line moving without such an aid. I am not against kneeling. But let’s get it straight- those who stand are not showing less reverence because they follow the norm. What matters is in the heart.
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Will_S
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If that were truly the only option, then I might receive from an EMHC.
But as I am adamantly opposed to the use of EMHCs in churches at Mass, then I must, as a matter of principle, refuse to receive from them myself.
But then again, I haven’t been to a New Mass in well over a year in any case.
And yet again, at my parish, all hospital and sick visits are done by the priests.
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zab
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You have repeatedly objected to my posting that people who follow the (norm) of standing are doing the will of God. You have said that you have made it clear that you disagree that obeying the “rubric” (norm) of standing is the will of God. See post #43. That much you have made clear. I believe you are wrong in suggesting that it is not the will of God for us to obey the norms that have been set for us.
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TrueLight
Guest
No, zab. You are misunderstanding. When I stated that I overcame the hurdle of basically being too shy to receive kneeling,when everyone else is standing you said:
This implies that I am not doing the will of God, but my will.
Will, in turn, replied that"standing" is not THE will of God (only), because kneeling is allowed. No one was saying it is not ALSO the will of God to stand.
Now, I know there are tons of threads where it is opined that kneeling is more reverent, but that is not what is being debated here.
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zab
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No TrueLight, You are misunderstanding. It is true that it can be more humbling for one to go against their own desire to kneel in order to obey they norm that has been set by the bishops. I never implied nor intended to imply that those who kneel were not doing the will of God but their own. You and Will have misunderstood my post. Will, on the other hand, after I repeated my statement, said clearly that he disagreed that the reception of Communion while standing is the will of God. When I asked for clarification he ignored my question.
WillS wrote in post 43:
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TrueLight
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Okay. I certainly don’t want to speak for Will, but this is the way I, myself see it.
This is what the new GIRM translation says,
So to me that has nothing to do with following one’s own will or being humble or following the will of God. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, which is about practices, not dogma, is not about Faith or Morals. It is about practices - namely, what the Bishops want.
However, as stated, if someone wants to receive kneeling, they are more than welcome to.
So I don’t see a problem.
I believe humility can also be exercised by those who look at the sprinkle of folks in the OF who receive kneeling and get all annoyed by it (I’m not saying that is you).
The Church allows it.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Isn’t it important to follow what bishops want? I consulted with my bishop directly many things I want to do for the Church and our community. He told me to drop some of the ideas and explained to me why. Before I spoke with him I felt it was the will of God that moves me to want to do these things. But after our talk, I complied.
God placed him there for a reason. If I think I’m better, then why didn’t God call me to be ordained?
You are right, what bishops are asking you to do is a practice. They are not asking you to sin. Therefore, why not follow it? I agree its a practice in humility.
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TrueLight
Guest
This is almost like bait.
So I guess I will have to take it.
If a Bishop tells me to go jump off a cliff, I’m not going to do it because the Church does not encourage suicide. I believe it is important to differentiate between dogmatic teaching, which occurs through a consensus of the Magisterium, led by the holy spirit and individual Bishop decisions.
For example, if the GIRM says I can kneel if I want, and one Bishop says “no way, no how”, then he is wrong.
Most likely I would start attending another parish.
I do not feel under obligation to follow that which goes contrary to actual teaching.
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TrueLight
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Also, I believe we, as laity, have some room to make express our desires when it comes to practice. If that were not so, then we would have no EF today.
And apparently, there is a grassroots movement for people to go up for blessings and to do the Orans position. I would not be surprised if those are eventually allowed.
And apparently, there is a grassroots movement for people to go up for blessings and to do the Orans position. I would not be surprised if those are eventually allowed.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
You know me better than thatThis is almost like bait.
So I guess I will have to take it.
I don’t bait. I just say whats on my mind.I just said that the bishop didn’t ask you to sin. Even Franciscans who have vows of obedience are not to obey if they are asked to do something that is clearly a sin. Receiving Communion standing is not a sin.
Why do we always defend our actions with, “if its not dogmatic teaching then I do not need to follow it.” Do we always have to hide behind legalism to get what we want? There is more to being a disciple than looking at the letter of the law. Being Catholic is not a contract where you only follow whats on the contract and anything else not in the contract is something we can do without.
On the other side of the discussion, there is no dogmatic teaching that women cannot wear bikinis to Mass. So should we allow them to come in bikinis?
What goes contrary to actual teaching?
Have you considered this verse?
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 13:17[/BIBLEDRB]
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TrueLight
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Again, since it is allowed, it is a non-issue.
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ConstantineTG
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I am more concerned by the attitude behind. The faith is not a legal obstacle course where our objective is to analyze the law and conform to it. And if we can find ways around the letter of the law to get what we want, then we should seek it. Salvation is not in the law, the law is only merely a guide on how we should act. Read my signature. Our objective in life is to share in the life of God, not to follow a list of dos and don’ts.
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TimothyH
Guest
One of the great lessons I have learned in reading The Imitation of Christ, is that there is great grace in not following our own will but the will of another, especially when that person has been placed by God in a position of authority over us. See Book 1, Chapter 9 and especially Book 3, Chapter 23 about the four things which bring great peace. No, we are not consecrated religious and so are not vowed to obey and no one is asking us to jump off a cliff or do something against what the Church teaches. We don’t have to obey.This is almost like bait.
So I guess I will have to take it.
If a Bishop tells me to go jump off a cliff, I’m not going to do it because the Church does not encourage suicide. I believe it is important to differentiate between dogmatic teaching, which occurs through a consensus of the Magisterium, led by the holy spirit and individual Bishop decisions.
For example, if the GIRM says I can kneel if I want, and one Bishop says “no way, no how”, then he is wrong.
Most likely I would start attending another parish.
I do not feel under obligation to follow that which goes contrary to actual teaching.
But when I kneel, or even if I just genuflect before recieving, (and I’m just talking about myself here, not anyone else) I make darn sure that I’m not doing it out of pride, so that everyone can see how reverent I am or so that everyone can see how holy I am. I have to be greatly moved to kneel in a parish where 1000 other people are not doing so. If I do not feel extremely moved to kneel out of personal desire to reverence God at that particular moment, I defer to the norm at the parish, which is standing, and assume that my pride was what made me want to kneel.
Contempt and persecution are blessed signs of divine predilection, but there is no proof and sign of predilection more beautiful than this: to pass unnoticed. -St. Josemaria Escriva
St. Josemaria Escriva spoke at length about “Passing unnoticed” in life, in dressing and behaving so that we don’t draw attention to ourselves. Recieving communion is not a “good work before men” to be set upon a lamp stand. Feeding the hungry and helping an old lady go grocery shopping - yes, let your light shine among men. Recieving communion - no, it is not a good work. It is communion. It is koinonia. It is intamacy with Jesus beyond any intimate moment you have ever had with anyone else in your life.
The truth is that Jesus Christ will not call us to judgment about whether we knelt or stood for communion. Rather he will call us to judgement about how are hearts were disposed at that moment we dared to approach the altar where he is made present and dared to recieve him. He will call us to judgement about whether, in the face of His own extreme humility in being nailed to a cross for our sins - yours and mine personally - and in the face of His own humility in coming to us under the appearance of bread and wine, whether we stood there and insisted that our own rights be respected. He will call us to judgement on whether we insisted that our own will be done, even as we recieved him who sweat blood in the garden yet said, “Not mine, but thy will be done” and then begged God to forgive the people who were murdering him.
OK, maybe the bishop is wrong. So what? There is great grace in submitting our pride and insistence on our will being done to the will of another, especially when they are in a postion of authority, even if they are wrong, and as another has pointed out, if they are not asking us to sin.
-Tim-
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