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zab
Guest
Nope.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
No He was just following directions.
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zab
Guest
We have several tall people in our parish. I have seen see them bending or squatting down somewhat and one of the tall ones does kneel which does make it easier for the priest or the Extraordinary minister of the Eucharist. Also, this is probably the reason that the priest now stands on the step instead of at the bottom of the steps. Obviously all these were doing what they could so that the priest did not have to do "… an interesting dance trying to reach his tongue.
"
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smead2942
Guest
The universal norm for reception of Holy Communion in Latin-rite Catholicism is kneeling and on the tongue, regardless of what some conference of bishops decides (and in fact, I believe the USCCB’s indult for Communion while standing/in the hand expired last year, so TECHNICALLY, no one should be doing so).
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zab
Guest
From Redemptionis Sacramentum
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the *recognitio *of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms.
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smead2942
Guest
The problem with that is, there’s really nothing reverent about standing. People just walk up, put out their hands, mutter “amen”, then toss the Blessed Sacrament into their mouth like a Ritz cracker and walk away.
Not saying that everyone does this-- I’ve seen many people that show reverence while standing. HOWEVER, standing is, by nature, an ordinary action. We do it all the time. There’s really no humility in it. If the Heavenly Hosts kneel in benediction before Christ, who are WE to stand? Are we above the angels? Are we above God?
I don’t know. It’s a very difficult subject to discuss, people have very strong opinions on both sides of the aisle. But the Church has spoken.
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Brendan
Guest
So squatting is now an approved position for Holy Communion??We have several tall people in our parish. I have seen see them bending or squatting down somewhat and one of the tall ones does kneel which does make it easier for the priest or the Extraordinary minister of the Eucharist. Also, this is probably the reason that the priest now stands on the step instead of at the bottom of the steps. Obviously all these were doing what they could so that the priest did not have to do "… an interesting dance trying to reach his tongue.
The GIRM states that kneeling or standing are the two approved positions, one of the which the person was already doing…
So the priest requested that he stand, so he did. ‘Squatting’ would not have been an approved posture.
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zab
Guest
The sign of reverence that this is referring to was determined by the conference of U.S. Bishops to be a bow. But you are right, people do have strong opinions on both sides. That is why we need to listen to what the Church says about things. There is humility in doing what those in authority have instructed us to do especially if it seems contrary to what we personally might want to do.
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Lormar
Guest
Something I keep reading over and over is that it is “disruptive” when someone kneels for Holy Communion.
There’s nothing disruptive about it. Many a time I have stood behind someone who has knelt. Not once has any one of them caused any disruption.
There’s nothing disruptive about it. Many a time I have stood behind someone who has knelt. Not once has any one of them caused any disruption.
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Brendan
Guest
Correct. Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as 'The Virtue by which we conform our wills to the will of the one who has authority"
The authority, as you have noted, rested in the USCCB via a recognito. That recognito indicated:
Those who follow such a norm practice the virtue of Obedience, those who do not, practice the Vice of Disobedience.
Interestingly enough, I as a parent, do not have the authority to mandate a posture to my children. If a child of mine chooses to stand, or to kneel, I would be disobedient to the Church if I falsely claimed authority to have them adopt another position. Conversely, the child would commit no disobedience against me if they did not follow my instruction. I would not have the authority, and thus, per Aquinas, there is no Virtue in the child conforming their will to mine in that matter.
And of course, the same is true if the one making the instruction is a priest, they would have no greater authority over my child in that matter than I would. In fact they have the same level of authority…none.
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BartholomewB
Guest
It probably wouldn’t have done any good. The priest seems to have closed his mind to ever learning anything from anybody. Apart from his regrettable failure to act with common courtesy, the priest is displaying willful ignorance of the rulings of the Congregation for Divine Worship, copied here from the link you helpfully posted earlier (#9 in this thread):So the communicant was trying to teach the priest a lesson?
*Can a pastor refuse communion to those who kneel?
This question came to the congregation in 2002 from a parishioner whose pastor had instituted a policy of refusing communion to those who presented themselves kneeling. The congregation responded forcefully, stating that they consider “any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful”. Furthermore, they issued a warning to priests who “should understand that the congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness.”
Are those who kneel for communion disobedient?
Following the promulgation of the GIRM, many held that those who chose to kneel when receiving were being disobedient to the norm created by the USCCB. This very question came to the congregation in 2003, who indicated that they had received “more than a few letters regarding this matter.” The congregation was unequivocal in stating that “the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive communion.” This response corrected the misinterpretation found in a July 2002 newsletter from the USCCB’s own liturgy committee, which stated that “kneeling is not a licit posture.” It is now quite clear that kneeling to receive communion is a licit posture and not one of disobedience, as some had previously thought.*
canonicallyspeaking.blogspot.com.br/2011/05/what-is-correct-posture-for-receiving.html
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cjforJesus
Guest
I agree. I have never seen kneeling cause any disruptions. I have witnessed people genuflect deeply before receiving the Eucharist, and this also causes no problems.
The Church allows for two ways of receiving Holy Communion,either in the hand or placed directly on the tongue. Communicants in the USA usually stand but if they wish to kneel it is not being disobedient or disruptive.
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zab
Guest
I’m not so quick to judge, after all, the posted did report the event as having taken place “some years back”. We know a lot more today than we did “some years back” and we can reference documents to prove our point that we did not have years ago. As far as we all knew , the posture was to stand. I do not see anything wrong with a priest asking someone to follow the same posture as everyone else. We know now, because the Sacred Congregation has spoken, that it would not be proper for the priest to ask someone who was kneeling to stand.
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Brendan
Guest
The priest could always ‘ask’, but it was never within the realm of his authority to mandate.
And that was even clear under the previous GIRM
Now the priest could have chosen that time to conduct the pastoral addressing to which he was entitled to give, but he could not have given any mandate for the communicant to stand.
He never had the authority to do so.
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BartholomewB
Guest
On your last point, agreed – in the United States, many priests, and possibly bishops as well, seem to have been remarkably misinformed about the true state of affairs until the Congregation for Divine Worship was called upon to hand down those rulings.
On the other question, however, common courtesy – not to mention Christian charity – would require the priest to put the Eucharist first and his own over-assertiveness nowhere.
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zab
Guest
For the past 5 years, our pastor has had the First Communicants to receive Communion kneeling and on the tongue. He makes it known to them that they will be able to stand thereafter and have the option to receive in the hand. But he wanted their very first Holy Communion to be a special experience for them to receive in the most traditional way. So are you saying that our pastor has no authority to do what he is doing?
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Bonnie
Guest
I mentioned in my earlier post about the person who needs help getting back on her feet at times. She still kneels, even tho it’s a struggle for her to stand up. Lucky for her it’s a small parish.
But that’s why I don’t kneel - I can’t get back up without help. So I stop at the first pew and, holding on, genuflect.
Only once have I gotten in trouble over this practice. We were visiting family in another state & went to Mass at the nearest Catholic church. After Mass we stopped to shake hands with the pastor & told him we were visiting. He gave me the the worst chewing out I’ve had in my adult life. Apparently I was supposed to know that genuflecting was not acceptable in his parish. Even my husband, who is pretty easy-going, was shook up. We didn’t return to that parish until after the priest retired.
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BartholomewB
Guest
In the light of the link that Zab posted on this thread (#9) and, in particular, of the two paragraphs from that link that I cut-and-pasted (#31), you could have politely explained to the priest that he was wrong and you were right.
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Bonnie
Guest
What makes you think I didn’t try? He just kept yelling over my quiet responses.
I was later told by several (unrelated) Catholics we knew in the area that he was the reason they changed parishes.
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