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UpUpAndAway
Guest
Point of curiosity
IIRC the UK is governed by three different bishops conferences. Is kneeling the norm in all of them?
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IIRC the UK is governed by three different bishops conferences. Is kneeling the norm in all of them?
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Maximian
Guest
The TLM has no rubrics about whether the people should kneel during the paternoster, but I can tell you that at the TLM I go to, run by a priestly community generally regarded as ultra conservative, nobody kneels for it.
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UpUpAndAway
Guest
Nobody kneels for the Our Father at the EF Masses I attend, either. (ICRSS)
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paperwight
Guest
Sorry, I don’t know. To be honest, I’d lazily overlooked there being more than one Bishops Conference, and should have specified England and Wales. I’d be surprised if the rule were any different, though. ’paperwight:
Point of curiosity
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Paul_Edwards
Guest
We must make a distinction between the intrinsic and extrinsic value of the mass, as the Catholic encyclopedia agrees. Such a distinction relates also to the different between the old and new mass. Message me for more details as large articles with links etc cannot be posted on here it turns out, but I can send you an article about it by an FSSP priest (who is in full communion with the Holy See).
This is the difference between unapproved groups like the SSPX and approved groups like the FSSP, the former of which does not make such a distinction but the latter of which has priests that do.
This is the difference between unapproved groups like the SSPX and approved groups like the FSSP, the former of which does not make such a distinction but the latter of which has priests that do.
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Paul_Edwards
Guest
The view which you correctly condemn, is the false idea that the minister effects the validity. That was a heretical idea. Even a murderer can offer a mass validly, and in fact this is the very reason that we can if needed attend any mass if needed. Even Judas was valid chosen.
On the contrary, the concept that within each mass various factors can cause the actual fruits rendered to be different is actually a longstanding traditional Catholic view, expressed in many catholic encyclopedias and documents and as explained by Fr Ripperburg, and I think it’s highly unlikely that a priest of the Fraternity would be guilty of Donatism (or any heresy). If you disagree with him, feel free to speak to any other priest of the Fraternity about the issue. I myself only learned about the concept because of a youth group I was at the other year when another priest talked about it.
Validity itself is one issue, but the fruits applied (which liturgical writers say are finite) is another.
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Dovekin
Guest
One of the principal aims of liturgical reform is the active participation of all in the ceremony. The “fruits applied” are directly dependent on the degree of active participation of the persons to whom they are applied.
That is why the sections of the GIRM I posted earlier talk about fostering communion are important in this context. Unity of posture during the Our Father helps express our unity in the Body of Christ, one of the “fruits applied” to the Church by Mass. When we, priest and people, pray together as Jesus taught us, the Lord is present with us.
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Paul_Edwards
Guest
What we agree on here is that the actions of man at the liturgy do effect the fruits applied (the efficaciousness). Exactly how that works is a good discussion for another thread perhaps someone should make, perhaps even on the topic of active participation which would be a good topic to discuss on how beneficial that has been in the last few decades etc and on how many graces seem to have stemmed from it.
Good point, unity is important, and hopefully one day all will be resolved.
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