Kneeling for the our father at Ordinary Form Mass

[OraLabora]

As I understand it, standing is actually the proper posture but the US has an indult for people to kneel because it’s traditional to kneel in USA. We had a thread on this regarding people standing in South Korea a couple weeks back.

The norm worldwide is to kneel during the consecration only, but in the US it is from the Sanctus to the great Amen. For those of us in the non-US hinterlands:

Ils s´agenouilleront pour la consécration, à moins que leur état de santé, l´exiguïté des lieux ou le grand nombre des participants ou d´autres justes raisons ne s´y opposent. Ceux qui ne s’agenouillent pas pour la consécration feront une inclination profonde pendant que le prêtre fait la génuflexion après la consécration.

(translation: They will kneel for the consecration unless their health, lack of space, or large number of participants or other just reasons prevent it. Those who do not kneel for the consecration will bow profoundly while the priest genuflects after the consecration).

From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (French version) on Vatican.va (the English version includes the US instructions)

 

[Thom18]

The main reason this logical doesn’t work is, that the difference is as follows: there are plenty of new rite masses all over the place, so you and anyone who would think of doing this would have no reason to attend the old rite if you have no interest in such centuries of beautiful inspiration inspired by the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, there are very few old rite masses available, and so some, like me and the writer of the post have to attend the new rite sometimes in order to be at Calvary, unless we travel miles, and so we have to make the most of what we can get, and normally in churches which originally had the traditional mass and now suddenly no longer do.

Also, regardless of who is right, to kneel or even to sit is a discreet act, but to stand up while everyone is sitting is to clearly and deliberately stick out, but that’s fine, be my guest. I have no guilt in being the only one kneeling, but if I was the only one standing, it’s not so much just guilt but I’d feel very embarrassed. Although to be honest, hopefully I would not notice if someone was standing because I hope that I would be occupied by prayer and focusing on the lord at that moment.

Do you think you don’t stick out while kneeling when everyone else is standing? I would certainly be aware if the person next to me or in front of me were kneeling while myself and the rest of the congregation are standing. To concern yourself with “noticeability”, though, is self defeating when you then bring up the act of personal reverence. If I feel more “reverent” while standing, then I’m as justified doing so in an EF Mass than someone who kneels in the OF Mass, regardless of how many people take notice. The availability or unavailability of either Mass does not dispense you from following the rubrics for the Mass you’re at.

 

[PeterT]

Recently I’ve been attending an FSSP parish and in the Latin rite once the host has been consecrated you remain kneeling until you go up to the altar rail. Today at Novus ordo I stood for the our father and I felt bad doing it, same for the sign of peace. I know it’s part of the Novus ordo rite so I wanna respect its tradition but I was wondering if I have the option to remain kneeling until receiving. Thanks

If you are physically able to stand, then you should stand while praying the Our Father in the Ordinary Form of the Mass. That’s the proper rubrics and there’s no option to kneel instead during the Our Father. Kneeling would be an unauthorized innovation on your part if attending an Ordinary Form Mass. The rubrics in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (G.I.R.M.) is very clear in regards to this: one stands during the Our Father (if physically able to do so).

If one is not physically able to stand during the Our Father, one can sit instead.

 

[OraLabora]

The best thing I’ve ever heard about liturgy: it’s not all about me.

The liturgy is the Church’s prayer. By following the rubrics of whatever rite I’m attending, I’m making it “not all about me”.

The Liturgy of the Hours is great at teaching this: we have to pray glad psalms when we’re sad, and sad psalms when we’re glad, because somewhere someone is glad when we’re sad and sad when we’re glad and we pray for everyone, not just ourselves.

 

[twf]

In the archdioceses of Vancouver and Toronto you also kneel for the entire EP and again after the Agnus Dei. Every other Canadian diocese I’ve visited only kneels from after the Sanctus to the consecration.

 

[OraLabora]

Every other Canadian diocese I’ve visited only kneels from after the Sanctus to the consecration.

That might be the case forAnglophone dioceses, but at every Francophone one I’ve attended, it’s been consecration only. I would add to that every Italian one as well as I’ve been to many Masses in Italy (and a few in France and Spain)

 

[Dovekin]

According to the GIRM, some parts of the Mass should “foster and bring about communion between Priest and people.” A core principle of Vatican II, active participation, is accomplished by these parts. Since a deeper communion is the aim, it does not seem right to separate oneself with unique postures.

1. Since the celebration of Mass by its nature has a “communitarian” character, both the dialogues between the Priest and the assembled faithful, and the acclamations are of great significance; for they are not simply outward signs of communal celebration but foster and bring about communion between Priest and people.
2. The acclamations and the responses of the faithful to the Priest’s greetings and prayers constitute that level of active participation that is to be made by the assembled faithful in every form of the Mass, so that the action of the whole community may be clearly expressed and fostered.
3. Other parts, most useful for expressing and fostering the active participation of the faithful, and which are assigned to the whole gathering, include especially the Penitential Act, the Profession of Faith, the Universal Prayer, and the Lord’s Prayer.
   GIRM 34-36

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Do you think you don’t stick out while kneeling when everyone else is standing?

Not intentionally, but perhaps by accident (and if so, then probably due to the fact that to many people are concentrating on everyone around them nowadays at mass and not enough on communication with God). At least in such a case (unintended noticeability) this can be a form of evangelization, it can make people ask themselves questions before they attend the next mass and the next mass etc, like for example “why is this person kneeling” and then after some research unless they are elderly anyway and have experienced it in childhood “why do the rest of us not do this any more?” and in many cases lead to an increase in faith in others. It might even (if God so wills it) lead someone to ask questions (outside the church after mass) and then an explanation can be provided which in the long run might lead that person into a deeper Eucharistic faith (and in many cases from from belief in a symbolic or spiritual presence to an actual presence). Perhaps it will lead the person to attend an “extraordinary” form mass and then lead to a shower of graces from heaven, so I thank you for making me think about this (in the scenario that people decide to observe those around them during Adoration of God).

On the contrary if I am standing during an old rite mass (which I will refrain from condemning for the sake of argument and assume it’s just as justified) then it will certainly not inspire anyone’s faith, and it will either not be noticed or not for a good while, or it will make people ask “who is this idiot?” and laugh at me after leaving the mass and on the way home

 

[dochawk]

Today at Novus order

Unlikely, as it hasn’t been celebrated in decades, and is hardly new after 50 years. The RC now generally celebrates the Ordinary Form, and the term "Novus Ordo is most often used derisively.

I know it’s part of the

Yes. “When in Rome . . .” is not a secular statement, but St. Ambrose, Archbishop of Milan, on how his flock should behave when at the Roman liturgy, which was different than his arch-diocese, even though it was the next one over . . .

And as a sidetone, kneeling as the position of respect (rather than of penitence) is one of those new-fangled things from the Middle Ages. Outside of the RCC, the Church has retained standing as the position of respect.

The Ordinary Form is based on the High Mass, but the option to “say” the whole mass instead of singing it.

Not so much the high Mass, but the older liturgical practice before Trent.

Until Trent, what became the high Mass was the norm (in areas of the west using the Roman liturgy or something derived from it), while the low Mass was a wide spread liturgical abuse that got codified as the norm at Trent.

The OF traces to before the split that created the Tridentine High and Low, and corrects errors/innovations in the Tridentine Mass.

To concern yourself with “noticeability”, though, is self defeating when you then bring up the act of personal reverence.

More bluntly: “It aint’ about you, but *Him!”

 

[phil19034]

The OF traces to before the split that created the Tridentine High and Low, and corrects errors/innovations in the Tridentine Mass.

I understand what you mean, but in this case the word “corrects” is most likely not the best word as the priest has free reign to do whatever he wants in regards to talking vs singing. For example: there are many priests who don’t chant/sing at all. While there are other who sing almost the whole thing.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Perhaps it will lead the person to attend an “extraordinary” form mass and then lead to a shower of graces from heaven

I fail to see what special grace is obtained by attending the EF over the OF. If anything, it’d just make me think they are celebrating mass differently. Nobody is going to have a profound philosophical crisis over somebody kneeling at mass.

 

[dochawk]

I understand what you mean, but in this case the word “corrects” is most likely not the best word as the priest has free reign to do whatever he wants in regards to talking vs singing.

“corrects” not so much as in singing/chanting/speaking, but as to parts and practice. (we don’t even know with certainty on some which were the priest’s, and which were the people’s, before their assimilation by the priest in the low mass, with was the base for the Tridentine codification)>

 

[Glennon_P]

So…disobedience of the rubrics of the Mass is OK, as long as it’s disobedience at the OF.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Ding, ding, ding!!
Give this man a prize!!

 

[dochawk]

While all Masses are equally valid, the Minister celebrating can effect the efficaciousness of the mass.

there’s a name for that notion, y’know . . .

 

[ThomasMT]

Why not just stick to the FSSP parish?

 

[Jragzz123]

What does this mean?

 

[dochawk]

The Donatist heresy.

 

[babochka]

Because in non-US countries people usually stand during consecration. They probably weren’t from US.

As I understand it, standing is actually the proper posture but the US has an indult for people to kneel because it’s traditional to kneel in USA. We had a thread on this regarding people standing in South Korea a couple weeks back.

The universal norm is to kneel for the consecration. The US adaptation is to kneel for the entire Eucharistic prayer.

 

[paperwight]

Tis_Bearself:

Because in non-US countries people usually stand during consecration. They probably weren’t from US.

As I understand it, standing is actually the proper posture but the US has an indult for people to kneel because it’s traditional to kneel in USA. We had a thread on this regarding people standing in South Korea a couple weeks back.

The universal norm is to kneel for the consecration. The US adaptation is to kneel for the entire Eucharistic prayer.

Kneeling for the entire Eucharistic prayer is also the practice in the UK.