Kneeling on Sundays

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Monica4316

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This is inspired by another thread…

I remember reading somewhere (sorry don’t remember where) that in the East, no one kneels at liturgy on Sunday cause kneeling is seen as a type of penance, and Sundays are not days for penance. But in the West people kneel at Mass on Sunday cause kneeling is seen more as humility before God.

My question is, okay so what happens if an Eastern Catholic comes to Mass on Sunday and kneels there? I mean Mass at a Roman Catholic church. Is this somehow against Eastern canons? Yet it’s supported by local (in this case Latin rite) custom. I’m just wondering if this has ever been addressed.

thanks 🙂
 
I’ve been to UGCCs where folks kneel on Sundays. In CAF EC, these folks are castigated for being latinized.

If an EC goes to an RC Mass and kneels, it’s okay. There’s no need to notify the Metropolitan, Patriarch or Pope.
 
When I attend Mass, I kneel at the appropriate times in the liturgy out of respect for the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. Likewise, I appreciate when Roman Catholic visitors to Divine Liturgy do not kneel, out of respect for our traditions.
 
mariyka said:
“When in Rome…”

😉
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Exactly. When I attend (which I hope to do in the near future) a Ukranian(sp?) Byzantine Divine Liturgy, I will do as everyone else. And I assume the same, vice versa.
 
mariyka said:
“When in Rome…”

😉
Click to expand...
Canon 20:
There are some people who kneel down on Sunday and during the Easter season, the fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday. Therefore, it has pleased the holy Council to decree that people should offer their prayers to the Lord, standing. This is required so that in each diocese (en pase paroikia) everything will be done in harmony …
Nicea - 325AD

Contrary to popular belief, this is not a canon for the eastern churches.

It is a canon binding on all Christianity, including Rome.
 
I heard a western-rite once say that this was a misunderstanding of the canon. He said that the canon that forbids “kneeling” on Sunday is actually referring to prostrations, and that a separate term was used in the Greek, “standing on the knees” (if I remember correctly). So kneeling as we think of would not be forbidden.
 
dcointin said:
I heard a western-rite once say that this was a misunderstanding of the canon. He said that the canon that forbids “kneeling” on Sunday is actually referring to prostrations, and that a separate term was used in the Greek, “standing on the knees” (if I remember correctly). So kneeling as we think of would not be forbidden.
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Except that it only uses the word “kneel” to describe what was happening, it uses standing to describe what should happen. 😉

However at the same time I would look at the context in which it was written - for the purpose of creating one practice, as it says at the end. Therefore as long as everyone is doing it the same way, it would seem to me to be following the spirit of the rule.
 
Nine_Two said:
Except that it only uses the word “kneel” to describe what was happening, it uses standing to describe what should happen. 😉

However at the same time I would look at the context in which it was written - for the purpose of creating one practice, as it says at the end. Therefore as long as everyone is doing it the same way, it would seem to me to be following the spirit of the rule.
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It was this fellow:

antiochian.org/content/fr-peter-gillquist-retire-head-department-missions-and-evangelism-fr-michael-keiser

He’s my mission’s priest, and also the priest who chrimated me about 8 years ago 😃
 
Monica4316 said:
This is inspired by another thread…

I remember reading somewhere (sorry don’t remember where) that in the East, no one kneels at liturgy on Sunday cause kneeling is seen as a type of penance, and Sundays are not days for penance. But in the West people kneel at Mass on Sunday cause kneeling is seen more as humility before God.

My question is, okay so what happens if an Eastern Catholic comes to Mass on Sunday and kneels there? I mean Mass at a Roman Catholic church. Is this somehow against Eastern canons? Yet it’s supported by local (in this case Latin rite) custom. I’m just wondering if this has ever been addressed.

thanks 🙂
Click to expand...
The rubrics go with the type of Liturgy (group prayer). If you were a priest or altar server you would be expected to follow the rubrics. The faithful should also follow the rubrics, even though we know some may not. It shows our solidarity in the parish.

As an example, an eastern Catholic that is accustomed to receiving the Holy Eucharist by spoon, will not receive that way at a Latin Church Mass. However, eastern Catholic infants that receive Holy Eucharist can still receive even in the Latin Church Mass.
 
Palm Sunday I went to St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in Chicago, and people were kneeling, and I mean close to a 100 pct.
 
dcointin said:
I heard a western-rite once say that this was a misunderstanding of the canon. He said that the canon that forbids “kneeling” on Sunday is actually referring to prostrations, and that a separate term was used in the Greek,** “standing on the knees”** (if I remember correctly). So kneeling as we think of would not be forbidden.
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I have limited experience which is with Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Catholic, Melkite, and a combined Assyrian-Chaldean parish. For Russians there are no pews and we very rarely kneel at all. We do lots of full prostrations but rarely on a Sunday, except those that venerate the Holy Cross. I’m never with the Greeks on a Sunday so can’t say about Sundays. The Greeks here have pews or chairs. The Cathedral with pews people kneel on kneelers other than Sundays. The Cathedral with chairs people sit of stand but there is no room for any kneeling nor prostrations. The Assyrian-Chaldeans likewise had pews with kneelers, making prostrations impossible and the Melkites had chairs making kneeling and prostrations impossible.

In the Greek Orthodox Cathedral with pews/kneelers, there are very few in attendance for services outside of Sundays. For such things as Compline and Presanctified which we have been celebrating for Great Lent less than 20 people, sometimes around 8-10, including us Catholics, are there. In this case quite a few people move into the aisles for full prostrations such as when the Presanctied Gifts are processed, and for the Prayer of St. Ephram. Personally I would feel so uncomfortable only kneeling when the Presanctified Gifts are processed. I would love to see some of these temples with pews remove a section of them so that those who want to stand and to do a profound bow and to do full prostrations would be to able to freely do so. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the clergy at the Greek Orthodox parishes are constantly gesturing to the laity to “sit”. So the posture is not entirely dictated simply by the choice of furniture in their temples. I’ve never seen this “Sit” thing happen in a Russian Orthodox church. There are some benches and a few chairs and if someone wants to sit they do, most stand.
 
Monica4316 said:
This is inspired by another thread…

I remember reading somewhere (sorry don’t remember where) that in the East, no one kneels at liturgy on Sunday cause kneeling is seen as a type of penance, and Sundays are not days for penance. But in the West people kneel at Mass on Sunday cause kneeling is seen more as humility before God.

My question is, okay so what happens if an Eastern Catholic comes to Mass on Sunday and kneels there? I mean Mass at a Roman Catholic church. Is this somehow against Eastern canons? Yet it’s supported by local (in this case Latin rite) custom. I’m just wondering if this has ever been addressed.

thanks 🙂
Click to expand...
You follow the traditions of where you are. Even some Eastern parishes kneel on Sundays. Whether they are right or wrong to do so, when you are there you should follow their traditions out of respect. If that needs to be addressed then you should go through their priest or bishop, but don’t act self-righteously in front of the other people because that doesn’t accomplish anything.
 
Seamus_L said:
Palm Sunday I went to St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in Chicago, and people were kneeling, and I mean close to a 100 pct.
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No surprise there.

Have you been to Annunciation BC parish in Homer Glen?
 
This is my second Paschal season in the Ukrainian Church and same as last year we had in our bulletins asking people not to kneel from Easter to Pentecost. At today’s Easter service everyone stood up. The kneelers only knelt to pray after Divine Liturgy was over. Last year we didn’t get as much buy in. I’m glad this year the packed church didn’t have anyone kneeling. Everyone is risen up as the Lord has risen up 👍
 
Hesychios
Code: 
                                          I visited Annunciation once, several years ago. I've been a little confused by things I've heard and seen there. When I was there, I remember some seating towards the sides, with most of the congregation standing in the center. Later photos seemed to indicate that they added more seating space, yet I've heard people deny this, so I don't know if it was temporary or what.

                                          I can't ever remember seeing EC's kneeling between Easter and Pentecost in the Chicago area. The rest of the year though it's quite common on Sundays, even at Saints Volodomyr and Olha.
 
In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, because 90% of them are descendants of former Ukrainian Catholics, kneeling was something they always did no matter what.

Their Metropolitan allowed them to kneel even on Sundays as a result - except that he legislated kneeling THREE times during the Liturgy - during the Great Procession, the Eucharistic Canon and the Our Father.

It is of some strange comfort to some Ukrainian Catholics that their Orthodox counterparts kneel more than they do . . . 😉

I belong to a parish that does not kneel on Sundays. I prefer it that way because I can make prostrations during the Eucharistic Canon like I used to do when I was an altar server and these were prescribed.

Kneeling has an entirely different meaning in the Eastern Christian culture and truly has no place in our Churches on Sundays. But I’m not going to start yelling at people in other parishes who do kneel. At one parish, the way they served the Liturgy literally brought me to my knees . . . 😉

Alex
 
Seamus_L said:
Hesychios
Code: 
                                          I visited Annunciation once, several years ago. I've been a little confused by things I've heard and seen there. When I was there, I remember some seating towards the sides, with most of the congregation standing in the center. Later photos seemed to indicate that they added more seating space, yet I've heard people deny this, so I don't know if it was temporary or what.
Click to expand...
The seats are very nice and comfortable, like benches with cushions.

They are not fastened to the floor, so they were eventually moved to either side and placed at angles to open up space for the members of the congregation who want to stand (which is what father Tom encouraged). Father would have liked to change it to all standing like at St Elias in Brampton, but the nash would have none of it. Of course there should always be seating for the infirm, elderly and new mothers etc.

There is nothing wrong with having seats, but if they are too close together it is impossible to do prostrations. I would recommend backless benches spaced widely enough apart to allow family members to stand near their elderly relatives who would need to sit, with very wide aisles and benches with backs along the walls. The extra space would make prostrations possible, and the backless benches would would not be such a dangerous obstacle to deep bows.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJ4h2865IhkLnEygsT29r5VkaKlfv6IvPq32yw0zxgvXJIjGNw
 
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