Kneeling to statues

[Tis_Bearself]

But some Protestants will disagree as they see bowing down and praying before a religious statue to be an act of worship.

I can’t say as I care what Protestants think or interpret when they see me doing what I do as a Catholic. I can explain it to them and if they choose for whatever reason to reject the explanation, that’s their problem, as I am not doing these activities for their benefit or to conform to what they think. They obviously have an agenda to prove they are right and Catholics are wrong, so what they think is going to be colored by that anyway.

 

[Tulitas]

You seem to think she applauds this. I don’t think that is what PC is saying: I think she is just stating that the fact remains…many longtime posters do this, and many who are lauded by other posters are wise and wonderful.

???
I don’t have a dog in this fight though

 

[guanophore]

So let me get this straight, if you ask a Catholic she will say no, if you ask a protestant he will say yes.

It is a pretty gross overgeneralization.

Catholics are more likely to understand and appreciate that symbols and statues are there to direct our minds to the spiritual. But one must keep in mind that many non-Catholics have been indoctrinated in falsehoods for generations, and have been taught to believe things like Catholics are not Christian, worship statues, practice idolatry in adoring the Eucharist, and other things that emanate from ignorance.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I bow down toward thy holy temple and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness; for thou hast exalted above everything thy name and thy word. (Psalm 138:2)

If the psalmist can bow down toward God’s holy temple, even though it contained huge statues (1 Kings 6:28), you can kneel before statues while praying to God.

 

[guanophore]

You are right. Catholics are going to say that it is proper to show reverence and to bow before and venerate statues.

No, this is not the case. We do not venerate statues, or any physical representations of spiritual realities (such as paintings, stained glass windows, etc.). We have reverence for what the statue represents.

Some Protestant churches are pretty barren with very few or no images at all.

Yes, the Reformation “cleansing” of images, especially in Calvanistic traditions has left the environment quite barren.

Maimonides has commented on bowing before and kissing icons as something that he does not agree with.

One’s use or not of images and statutes is a private matter of spiritual practice. It is not a doctrine of the Catholic faith, and Catholics are not expected/required to have any relationship with a statue or any other reminder of our faith.

Please see:

Roman Catholicism on Mary, and idolatry | carm.org

It is not only Protestants who will say so.

Take my advice, stay off that site. No one will benefit from the hostile, anti-catholic spleen you will find there.

I haven’t witnessed anything uncharitable on this thread.

The link posted is definitely uncharitable toward Catholicism.

 

[AlNg]

No, this is not the case. We do not venerate statues, or any physical representations of spiritual realities (such as paintings, stained glass windows, etc.)

So the Catechism of the Catholic Church is wrong and you are right? I thought that it was heresy to reject what was written in the CCC ? Or are Catholics allowed to disagree with the teachings of the CCC ?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Where in the CCC does it say that Catholics venerate statues?

Edited to add, Section 2132 states that the veneration paid to an “image” passes beyond it and is actually veneration of the person portrayed in it. Therefore, guanophore is correct.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

 

[AlNg]

Where in the CCC does it say that Catholics venerate statues?

<<<2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment.>>>

The CCC does not prohibit the veneration of images., It says:
<<<The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,">>>

It does add that the honor the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” My reading of this is that the CCC does not prohibit the veneration of images?
Here is what guanophore believes:

No, this is not the case. We do not venerate statues, or any physical representations of spiritual realities (such as paintings, stained glass windows, etc.).

So which is it?
The CCC: " The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment." and
“The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,”
OR
guanophore:

We do not venerate statues, or any physical representations of spiritual realities (such as paintings, stained glass windows, etc.)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s quite obvious to me that guanophore is pointing out that we do not venerate the object itself - rather the veneration passes through to the person depicted, which is in agreement with the Catechism.

 

[guanophore]

So the Catechism of the Catholic Church is wrong and you are right?

Point me to the relevant passage, and I will go confess to my parish priest!

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is He whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

I thought that it was heresy to reject what was written in the CCC ?

Really? Does it say that in the CCC?

Or are Catholics allowed to disagree with the teachings of the CCC ?

What a strange question? Are you not allowed?

Human beings were given free will by God. They can choose to “disagree” with God, you, me, and the Catechism. Are you under some misapprehension that a faithful Catholic no longer has free will?

The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,"

I think the reference you are citing originated at the Council of Nicaea (7th Ecumenical,787 AD).

We [the council bishops], therefore, define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God… [To these we can add] the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects,incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honor which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented… "
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

We treat images with great respect and reverence BECAUSE of who they represent. Disrespect to sacred images is like someone disrespecting the flag of a country.

How did you get to be so hostile toward the Catholic faith?

 

[petra22]

When I am in the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, I bow and kneel…

 

[MCH1]

Would anyone believe that these persons are bowing down to a kleenex box?

Yes!!!

 

[AlNg]

Point me to the relevant passage

I recommend that Catholics and others read the CCC and the declarations of the Council of Trent. for information on this.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment…
“The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,”
It is true of course, that the honor and veneration paid to the sacred image is passed on to its prototype, because whoever venerates the image venerates also the person portrayed in it.

Further, the prayers of the Byzantine Catholic Church are instructive:

TROPARION (Tone 2) (Sunday of the Veneration of Icons)
We venerate Your sacred image, 0 gracious Lord , and we beg forgiveness of our sins, 0 Christ our God …
Further the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic Church
SI. Theodore Studite, d. 826
” No matter how perfect one is, he always needs a page of Scripture (Bible). In the same manner one also needs the holy images, painted in accordance with the Scriptures. Therefore, we venerate and honor them both in the same way!”

 

[tweedlealice]

Blessings,
I don’t think so. We know that the statue is plaster, etc. I don’t know in the early pagan world if they thought the statue was the god or a symbol of it?
Our statues are like our photos. A remembrance. They are a focal point for prayer, so our minds don’t wander. We pray to God our request and Ask that Saint to continue our prayer before Gods Holy throne.
In Jesus Name
Tweedlealice

 

[guanophore]

I recommend that Catholics and others read the CCC and the declarations of the Council of Trent. for

Thanks. That is great advice. Why didnt y ou answer my questions?

 

[AlNg]

Thanks. That is great advice. Why didnt y ou answer my questions?

What was the question?

 

[guanophore]

What was the question?

I will understand this avoidance to mean that you are either unable, or unwilling to answer them. In either case, it damages your credibility.

 

[AlNg]

I will understand this avoidance to mean that you are either unable, or unwilling to answer them.

I am not sure what your specific question was. I know that you said the following:

We do not venerate statues, or any physical representations of spiritual realities (such as paintings, stained glass windows, etc.)

I can only repeat what I already said:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment…

“The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,”

It is true of course, that the honor and veneration paid to the sacred image is passed on to its prototype, because whoever venerates the image venerates also the person portrayed in it.

Further, the prayers of the Byzantine Catholic Church are instructive:

TROPARION (Tone 2) (Sunday of the Veneration of Icons)

We venerate Your sacred image, 0 gracious Lord , and we beg forgiveness of our sins, 0 Christ our God …

Further the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic Church

SI. Theodore Studite, d. 826

” No matter how perfect one is, he always needs a page of Scripture (Bible). In the same manner one also needs the holy images, painted in accordance with the Scriptures. Therefore, we venerate and honor them both in the same way!”

 

[Darryl_B]

The link posted is definitely uncharitable toward Catholicism.

I actually chose not to look at the link. Thereby preemptively taking your advice. One should speak from their own position, not just merely post someone else’s rhetoric.

 

[Darryl_B]

I agree. And I was hoping that this would be mentioned. Though I suspect there are protestants who would not have faith to believe this.

(Catholics worship a wafer, I have heard it said, which in ways makes me a little incensed).