Kneeling to statues

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You can’t accidentally worship something. It is an interior act.
And our ultimate act of worship–some technical language may say our only act of worship-- is the Sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants don’t have sacrifice so often their idea of worship is less than that, sometimes reduced to praying.
 
It is compounded by the fact that various words of our English language have been narrowed down by the Puritan to belong to God alone. Both worship and pray are two words which have been absoluted in that way, and venerate is a border-line one, that is accepted outside of the realm of God by protestants but only with highly imposed conditions.

It therefore makes discussion between Catholics and protestants of English speaking nations difficult because we are using the words in a different fashion, with different meaning.

Should we actually be required to invent a new word to appease the protestant, I imagine it would only be a matter of generations before it was subjected to the same imposition.
 
Darryl_B said:
(Catholics worship a wafer, I have heard it said, which in ways makes me a little incensed).
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It is a painful slander, but not much has changed in 2000 years. The early Romans accused Catholics of “drowning their children and eating their God”. But sometimes the testimonies of ones enemies can be a blessing, as it confirms two elements disputed by modern evangelicals.
 
AlNg said:
I am not sure what your specific question was.
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AlNg said:
I recommend that Catholics and others read the CCC and the declarations of the Council of Trent. for information on this.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment…

“The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,”

It is true of course, that the honor and veneration paid to the sacred image is passed on to its prototype, because whoever venerates the image venerates also the person portrayed in it.
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I read it AND cited it AND posted it above, noting that Guanophore is pointing out that the veneration passes through to the person depicted. You seem to be ignoring my response in your zeal to argue with him.

I’m not sure if you are showing hostility to the Church or just being weird because you want to win an argument, but the issue is settled.
 
I don’t know any Protestants who think kneeling before a statue is akin to worshiping the statue itself. Most everyone totally gets that the statue is simply a reminder (to the kneeler) of the person depicted. The real issue that Protestants have is with the kneeler’s apparent worship of the person depicted. They take the act of kneeling to be an act of worship – and only God should be worshiped.

Catholics respond with something like “Don’t you know the difference between worship and veneration?” And usually the answer that comes back is “Nope. Can you explain the difference?” What ensues is often a disagreement over whether, at the end of the day, veneration is just a watered-down form of worship. What gets missed in the rhetoric is the real issue: is kneeling a sign of worship or isn’t it?

Somebody here want to take a shot at this?
 
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Catholics do not see kneeling before a statue of a saint or Mary as a form of worship. We see it as veneration. To us there’s a difference. If a Protestant doesn’t think there’s a difference, that’s his or her hangup.

We also see kneeling as a normal “reverent” position for prayer, including intercessory prayer to a saint. Somebody wanting to pray to God and throw in a couple of prayers asking St. Joseph, St. Francis or St. Anthony to please intercede would kneel as a matter of course without thinking twice about it.

Positions that Catholics associate purely with “worship” would be more like the double-kneed genuflection with a bow to the ground, or prostration. A Catholic would only do these gestures in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament or before Jesus himself in the flesh. No Catholic would be double-genuflecting or prostrating himself in front of the statue of St. Anthony.
 
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Thanks. Want to take a shot at the difference between worship and veneration?

And when you say “Catholics do not see kneeling before a statue of a saint or Mary as a form of worship,” are you speaking for all Catholics?
 
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Yes, I am speaking for ALL CATHOLICS because it is against our religion to “worship” Mary or saints. A Catholic who is doing anything, whether it’s kneeling or lighting a candle or just standing there and praying, with the idea, “I am worshipping St. Anthony” or “I am worshipping Mary” is going against Church teaching, and probably upsetting Mary or St. Anthony quite a bit because those persons do not want to be worshipped. No saint wants worship. They want you to worship God, as they themselves worship God.

The difference between “worship” and “veneration” is in a person’s head. You cannot look at some gesture and slap your own non-Catholic interpretation on it. I can say that as a Catholic, we do not expect to see double-genuflection or prostration before anyone other than God/ Jesus Christ/ the Holy Spirit, because to a Catholic, that’s what those gestures mean.

I kneel in front of saint statues all the time. It’s a respectful praying position for Catholics, and there is generally a kneeler or a step there so Catholics can pray. I am neither “worshipping” the statue nor “worshipping” the saint.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Yes, I am speaking for ALL CATHOLICS because it is against our religion to “worship” Mary or saints. A Catholic who is doing anything, whether it’s kneeling or lighting a candle or just standing there and praying, with the idea, “I am worshipping St. Anthony” or “I am worshipping Mary” is going against Church teaching . . .
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Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.

And I’m sure she wasn’t the only Catholic on the planet who did so. After twelve years of Catholic schooling I can honestly say that the distinctions you’ve made here (thank you!) were never taught to me. Kneeling was never presented as purely a sign of veneration. The difference between worship and veneration was never delved into. I was taught to kneel at specific times during the Mass and at the communion rail (maybe “taught” is too strong; I was “following the crowd”) and assumed it signified fealty to the Almighty.

Why don’t we do this: Let’s get a definition of “veneration” and of “worship” and examine them side by side. Da?
 
RedFan said:
Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.
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As we see every single day on this forum, Catholics get things wrong sometimes, due to poor catechesis or even choosing to go against Church teaching. Also, sometimes people who observe Catholics doing something form wrong impressions of Catholics. Since at this point it is impossible to interview either your grandma or any other Catholic you formed an impression of, it’s impossible to tell whether they had it wrong, or you had it wrong.

We strive to present correct Church teaching on this forum. if some Catholic out there is engaging in incorrect behavior, whether it’s worshipping Mary or being divorced and remarried 5 times without an annulment or not attending Mass for 10 years for no good reason, they are going against Church teaching, plain and simple.

I don’t see any point in getting a definition of “veneration” and “worship” and comparing them side by side. You obviously are coming at this with an agenda because you’ve already decided your grandma and other Catholics you saw are “worshipping” and you just want to prove that’s what all of us are doing. You are not interested in the correct Catholic teaching, or in our own well-reasoned explanations of what we are actually doing. You’re interested in justifying your position. And your grandma and these other people you keep bringing up are not here to explain their side of the story.

I’m not really interested in arguing with you trying to change your personal opinion. You’re free to think what you like. I put the correct info out there and there is no need for anything more.

God bless.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I’m not sure if you are showing hostility to the Church or just being weird because you want to win an argument, but the issue is settled.
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All irrelevant to the fact that there is a Sunday in the Eastern Church dedicated to the Veneration of the Cross and Veneration of Icons. I already said that the honor and veneration paid to the sacred image is passed on to its prototype which it represents, because whoever venerates the image venerates also the person portrayed in it. And of course, the honor given to an icon is only veneration (proskynesis) and not adoration (douleia), which is given to God only. But it should be noted that the Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment.
 
RedFan1h
Yes, I am speaking for ALL CATHOLICS because it is against our religion to “worship” Mary or saints. A Catholic who is doing anything, whether it’s kneeling or lighting a candle or just standing there and praying, with the idea, “I am worshipping St. Anthony” or “I am worshipping Mary” is going against Church teaching . . .

Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.

And I’m sure she wasn’t the only Catholic on the planet who did so. After twelve years of Catholic schooling I can honestly say that the distinctions you’ve made here (thank you!) were never taught to me. Kneeling was never presented as purely a sign of veneration. The difference between worship and veneration was never delved into. I was taught to kneel at specific times during the Mass and at the communion rail (maybe “taught” is too strong; I was “following the crowd”) and assumed it signified fealty to the Almighty.

Why don’t we do this: Let’s get a definition of “veneration” and of “worship” and examine them side by side. Da?

Well…I can see your point in a way…it does make me cringe sometimes when watching documentaries of Catholic saints feast days on TV…especially some of those from Europe…it does appear that it is bordering on worship…and yes…even the word venerate can mean worship in it’s broader meaning…of course as Catholics we (hopefully) should use it in the context of “honor” or “respect”…not for the statue itself…but for the saint whose image the statue represents…and even then we should go beyond just honoring that saint…and mainly reflect on how that saints life reflected their love and devotion to God…and pray for that saints intercession to our Blessed Lord that we may have the faith to emulate that same devotion to God
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Yes, I am speaking for ALL CATHOLICS because it is against our religion to “worship” Mary or saints.
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I think there has been a confusion of veneration (respect) for worship. This is a sad consequence of puritanism.
 
RedFan said:
Why don’t we do this: Let’s get a definition of “veneration” and of “worship”
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I was also raised Catholic, and am astonished at the number of things I did not get either taught or properly “absorbed”. Kids infer all kinds of strange things when following the crowd!

I was thinking about the special treatment of written archives and artwork, and the care that is taken not to touch certain items with the bare hands. No one would consider this kind of respect (veneration/care) to be mistaken for worship.
 
AlNg said:
All irrelevant to the fact that there is a Sunday in the Eastern Church dedicated to the Veneration of the Cross and Veneration of Icons.
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Actually it is quite relevant, and Roman Catholics also celebrate the veneration of the cross on Good Friday, and the veneration of holy relics. We are venerating what these objects represent to us, not the items themselves. It may be that you do not have the mental ability to abstract (although your posts seem to deny this) or that you are just possessed of such an entrenched anti-Catholic mentality that you cannot accept that we do not worship objects.
Peebo said:
of course as Catholics we (hopefully) should use it in the context of “honor” or “respect”…not for the statue itself…but for the saint whose image the statue represents…and even then we should go beyond just honoring that saint
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There is non doubt that some people seem to have gone overboard into some kind of spiritism.

I was watching a documentary yesterday on the war of 1812, and how Mrs. Adams remained at the White House after sending all the guards and staff so that she could save the painting of George Washington. She had such veneration for it, she was not willing to let it burn.
 
Well, I’d say kneeling is a sign of humility. I humbly request those persons I’m humbling myself to… in the presence of a statue of Mary for example… I’m humbly asking her to intercede for me in praying for a person or special intention. I don’t WORSHIP anyone but God. I can humble myself in front of lots of people without worshiping them…
 
RedFan said:
Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.
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If your grandmother TOLD you she worshiped Mary then maybe you could be convinced. She was just a HUMBLE woman–your grandmother–and wanted to show reverence to the HOLY MOTHER of GOD!
 
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