Kneeling vs Standing

[steve975]

I attend Mass occasionally at a Church in which the congregation remains standing during the Consecration rather than kneeling. The reason is that there is a side hall where none of the seats have kneelers, and so it’s sort of a “community” thing for the rest of the congregation to also remain standing so as to provide some type of uniformity. I always kneel regardless. Last weekend, the priest actually stated, “please remain standing”, but I still knelt down anyway.

My understanding is that either kneeling or standing are both considered acceptable forms of reverence (I’ve read that standing is common in Byzantine Masses). But my understanding is also that a priest doesn’t have the authority to command people to stand instead of kneel. Any thoughts?

 

[b_justb]

If the priest says stand, then you stand. If you’d like to talk to him about it, make an appointment and do so.

If you absolutely feel he is wrong, do it any way. Maybe refrain from receiving Holy Communion for that particular Mass, then see step two above

 

[EasterJoy]

Uniformity is great, I am all for it, but uniformity with the GIRM is the first uniformity that has to be satisfied. Does the entire congregation also genuflect, as required of those who cannot kneel?

This is not an uncommon situation during Christmas Masses, where parishes have to add temporary seating to accomodate everyone. Those present who have kneelers, kneel. Those who don’t have kneelers, stand. Those who are infirm do what they can. Those with the room and the ability to do so are supposed to genuflect at the consecration. Those who can’t, because there isn’t enough room to do so where they are seated for instance, make a profound bow. Not everyone knows this, but I am surprised that a priest wouldn’t encourage uniformity to the GIRM as much as possible.

Well, talk to him. We should not presume to know his motives or meaning. He deserves that courtesy.

 

[Corki]

I am not sure what country you are in. In the US, kneeling is required for the consecration until after the great Amen. In other countries, it is just for the consecration or up to the Memorial Acclamation. Lack of space for kneeling is one of a very few exceptions. Lack of kneelers is not one of the exceptions. If you are in a “grey area”, the priest is the one to “make the call”. For example, I was in a Mass in a hall with folding chairs. To me, there seemed to be plenty of space but since there were quite a few older people there, the priest directed standing due to lack of space. Otherwise, it is your personal situation. If you have enough space and are physically able, you kneel.

Our parish, in the US, has no kneelers. Everyone who is able kneels.

As for the Byzantine discipline, was this an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy or a Latin Mass? If the latter, the former’s disciplines don’t apply.

As for obeying the priest, you have two choices, as I am sure you know. You can kneel anyway. If you were to do this, my own suggestion would be to sit in the back so it wasn’t seen as a direct challange to the priest’s authority. This would be perfectly fine, especially if this is not your own parish.

Or you can stand as directed and “offer it up”. If this was your home parish, it might be a better choice since you owe your pastor a higher level of obedience.

I am not sure why either choice would suggest refraining from Communion. Nothing about this invalidates the consecration so refraining doens’t seem to be a question.

 

[steve975]

The situation with this particular parish is that the main hall has pews with kneelers but the side hall has folding chairs. It is in the northeast U.S. There are several priests who celebrate at this parish and it is a common practice in the parish as a whole to stand due to the fact that those in the side hall don’t have kneelers. One of the priests recently addressed this during the Homily to clear this up and explain this reason. This past weekend was when another priest actually said, “please remain standing.”

I disagree with this, and I don’t believe I am obligated to obey a priest if he commands something he lacks the authority to command. I don’t believe I’d be obligated to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer if he commanded that, for example. And my understanding is that with the kneeling vs standing issue, he does not have authority to direct people to not kneel.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I am not sure what country you are in. In the US, kneeling is required for the consecration until after the great Amen.

Actually, standing is acceptable in chapels or temporary areas (e.g. gyms) without kneelers. You can also stand or sit at parishes with kneelers if you are physically unable to kneel (e.g. senior citizens).

 

[tee_eff_em]

Does the entire congregation also genuflect, as required of those who cannot kneel?

Those with the room and the ability to do so are supposed to genuflect at the consecration. Those who can’t, because there isn’t enough room to do so where they are seated for instance, make a profound bow. Not everyone knows this, but I am surprised that a priest wouldn’t encourage uniformity to the GIRM as much as possible.

Perhaps *not everyone knows this *because it is not so?

Those who do not kneel are directed to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects during the consecration, not to themselves genuflect.
(At least: Those who follow the US GIRM, or the unadapted *editio typica *of the IGMR)

tee

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

I have attended a Roman Catholic Parish which stands. The Parish was constructed about 10 to 12 years ago and has permission to ‘stand’ during the Eucharist. There are no kneeler’s but other than that the Liturgy is quite good. They are particularly good with their music…

Personally I like the more tradition parishes but I have attended this parish for a very long time and it’s my home parish and that of my daughter as well.

 

[EasterJoy]

Perhaps *not everyone knows this *because it is not so?

Those who do not kneel are directed to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects during the consecration, not to themselves genuflect.
(At least: Those who follow the US GIRM, or the unadapted *editio typica *of the IGMR)

tee

You are correct. I was thinking of the bow at mention of the Incarnation during the Creed, which changes to a genuflection at Christmas and the feast of the Annunciation.

That was BIG oops, there, on my part. Thanks for the correction!!!

 

[VociMike]

Why not start a campaign to get chairs with fold-up kneelers on the back, so everyone can kneel as the bishops call for? If your Masses are so full that you consistently need to use folding chairs, you should be able to raise the money easily.

 

[lynnareyno]

The Archdiocese of Detroit allows standing during the consecration if the church(built under the law) does not have kneelers.- like my parish. Churches built or renovated since December 1998 must have kneelers.

 

[benedictgal]

Grace and Peace,

I have attended a Roman Catholic Parish which stands. The Parish was constructed about 10 to 12 years ago and has permission to ‘stand’ during the Eucharist. There are no kneeler’s but other than that the Liturgy is quite good. They are particularly good with their music…

Personally I like the more tradition parishes but I have attended this parish for a very long time and it’s my home parish and that of my daughter as well.

It is quite interesting that they have “permission” to stand, especially since the norm is to kneel. The universal norm, by the way, is to kneel from the epiclesis to the Memorial Acclamation. I have gone to Mass in Mexico and that is how their conference handles the sitution. In fact, when folks from Mexico attend Mass in our parishes, it tends to create confusion, especially if they sit in the front because their postures are different and the celebrant usually has to cue them. If you observe the Papal Masses transmitting from St. Peter’s, you will find that most of the faithful will stand at the Memorial Acclamation.

In the United States, we remain kneeling from after the Sanctus to the Great Amen.

This is how Cardinal Arinze responded to a question regarding kneeling during the Consecration:

The rule from Rome would sanction where the bishops said, “in our country we want people to kneel throughout the consecration”. From our office in Rome we will support that. So it is a bit different. But sometimes during the consecration – suppose it is open-air or it rained and it is muddy – you could not kneel there. But in the normal church it is possible to kneel.

And*** that’s the normal thing: to kneel during the consecration ***-- and even, as in this country, to kneel from the beginning – just before consecration – right down to just before the Our Father. And that is okay.

Here, he was speaking to the adapation in the United States regarding kneeling throughout the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[japhy]

Preventing the people from kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is hindering their full, active, and conscious participation. Kneeling is part of our participation in the liturgy. Why prevent it?

 

[chrisb]

Preventing the people from kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is hindering their full, active, and conscious participation. Kneeling is part of our participation in the liturgy. Why prevent it?

We’ve seen visiting congregates kneel but they don’t tend to do it for very long without kneelers. They all seem to move to a pseudo-kneeling/sitting position but the members of the parish ‘stand’ and only a few know to bow. I’ve thought about the parish as a ‘gateway’ Church for those from outside the normal Roman Catholic Community but I’ve never read it’s charter.

All that I can say is that they don’t kneel and their practice has been approved by the Bishop.

 

[Corki]

Grace and Peace,

I have attended a Roman Catholic Parish which stands. The Parish was constructed about 10 to 12 years ago and has permission to ‘stand’ during the Eucharist. There are no kneeler’s but other than that the Liturgy is quite good. They are particularly good with their music…

If it was me, I would ask to see the document that gave “permission”. Since the USCCB has to get permission from the CDW just to allow us to remain kneeling through the great Amen, permission to dispense with kneeling altogether would need to come from the CDW as well.

Same goes for Detroit. I would be cautious about the validity of that permission. I am not saying they didn’t petition and receive an “ok” from the CDW - it’s possible. I just maintain a healthy skeptism. I lived in that diocese when we were told we had “permission” to use home-baked honey bread and to receive communion in the hand when, in fact permission for the latter only came later and permission for the former was a myth.

 

[benedictgal]

If it was me, I would ask to see the document that gave “permission”. Since the USCCB has to get permission from the CDW just to allow us to remain standing through the great Amen, permission to dispense with kneeling altogether would need to come from the CDW as well.

Same goes for Detroit. I would be cautious about the validity of that permission. I am not saying they didn’t petition and receive an “ok” from the CDW - it’s possible. I just maintain a healthy skeptism. I lived in that diocese when we were told we had “permission” to use home-baked honey bread and to receive communion in the hand when, in fact permission for the latter only came later and permission for the former was a myth.

Corki, with all due respect, the USCCB garnered the necessary recognitio to remain kneeling from after the Sanctus straight through to the Great Amen, not the other way around.

You are right in that a particular change from this aspect does require the necessary recognitio from the Holy See as Cardinal Arinze pointed out in the quote I posted. From what he’s said, both there and in the past, Rome is more likely to favor anything concerning kneeling than standing.

 

[Corki]

Corki, with all due respect, the USCCB garnered the necessary recognitio to remain kneeling from after the Sanctus straight through to the Great Amen, not the other way around.

You are right in that a particular change from this aspect does require the necessary recognitio from the Holy See as Cardinal Arinze pointed out in the quote I posted. From what he’s said, both there and in the past, Rome is more likely to favor anything concerning kneeling than standing.

oops. Of course, that’s what I meant. I fixed it. Thanks.

 

[John_Lilburne]

The situation with this particular parish is that the main hall has pews with kneelers but the side hall has folding chairs. It is in the northeast U.S. There are several priests who celebrate at this parish and it is a common practice in the parish as a whole to stand due to the fact that those in the side hall don’t have kneelers. One of the priests recently addressed this during the Homily to clear this up and explain this reason. This past weekend was when another priest actually said, “please remain standing.”

I disagree with this, and I don’t believe I am obligated to obey a priest if he commands something he lacks the authority to command. I don’t believe I’d be obligated to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer if he commanded that, for example. And my understanding is that with the kneeling vs standing issue, he does not have authority to direct people to not kneel.

In the USA the approved General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) has:
“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.”

Now “some other good reason” is so general to be almost anything. If the priest is directing it, then it is difficult to argue that there is no good reason for the posture he is directing.

Another part of the GIRM has: “42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.” So one person not following the priest’s directions in this case is also contrary to this. Also at the end of n. 43: “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.” To look up these parts of the USA GIRM go to romanrite.com/girm.html .

 

[KathleenElsie]

Preventing the people from kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is hindering their full, active, and conscious participation. Kneeling is part of our participation in the liturgy. Why prevent it?

My family and I avoid those places that don’t kneel (for the Latin Rite). When we can’t do so we kneel anyway. This is easiest if you sit in the back of the hall etc. Oh and those foam thingies that are used for yard work are small and softer then concrete.

 

[grandfather]

Actually, standing is acceptable in chapels or temporary areas (e.g. gyms) without kneelers. ).

Who told you that?