Kneeling vs Standing

[b_justb]

Hi B,

I would think that it would be more important to receive at these times. Certainly the sin is not to be upset by things, if anything it may be sinful to dwell on this, or harbor negative thoughts toward those who do not act as we think best. Wouldn’t it be better to ask Jesus to come to us and help us overcome these feelings?

When I get very angry, I don’t even ask for help to overcome these feelings, I beg Jesus to take them, since I don’t feel I can give them up. And they usually are greatly eased after Communion.

Lux

Hey, Lux

Liked your post. Personally I would receive because I just don’t let what going on around me in Mass bend me up. I’m there, I’m communing with God, and it’s all good. I wasn’t really pointing at the participant being angry but more just being out of communion with God due to the distractions and questions in his own mind about the situation he found himself in. Receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church is also a unifying statement. We believe, so we partake. This is why there isn’t open communion. If one doesn’t believe or is not in agreement then he should refrain, IMO of course, which is so far from being authoritive it might be in one of those new found lakes on one of Saturn’s moons.

 

[grandfather]

Isn’t it interesting that after 2,000 years of Christianity and Catholics worshipping together that there could be confusion over whether to stand or kneel, hold hands or not, receive in the hand or mouth, bow or genuflect before receiving, or do nothing, and all the other things they worry about that should be simple, not even on the radar? I have talked to many priests who say they struggle over how to make Mass a more meaningful experience for worshippers. What does that say? They realize something is missing. Something should be there that is not happening for or to the people, in general. So they try to tweak this and change that and do something different. Let’s hold hands and maybe that will do it. Let’s have babies and non-Catholics approach to recceive, but get a “special” blessing from the priest or lay minister. Let’s do a dance. Maybe that will liven things up. How should we “do” liturgy? If you don’t know by now you will never know.

This is a new problem. Where did it come from?

 

[KathleenElsie]

It is impossible to follow both the Byzantine and Latin Rite norms in the same Liturgy. Being bi-ritual means worshipping with either Liturgy, but not both at the same time.

This is why we follow the norms of the service we are attending that day. As for fast or feast days there are some that are the same and some that are not. So this is not hard to do.

The situation requires respect for the Rite and Holy Mother Church.

 

[grandfather]

This is why we follow the norms of the service we are attending that day. As for fast or feast days there are some that are the same and some that are not. So this is not hard to do.

The situation requires respect for the Rite and Holy Mother Church.

Thank you for clearing that up. I have never heard of a bi-ritual parish. Do you have two bishops, one for each rite?

 

[benedictgal]

Good reasons for individuals were posted, but also if a community had a large number who could not kneel, they might feel that it is better to have the uniformity of standing, rather than a divided posture.

Lux

Howvever, that certainly doesn’t apply to the case of the OP. As far as I can tell, it seems that the parish might have an aversion to kneeling. Kneeling is a Christological posture, as Pope Benedict XVI notes in The Spirit of the Liturgy:

Kneeling is not only a Christian gesture, but a christological one.

He gets to this conclusion after observing that:

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy…

…In the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the verb barak, “to kneel”, is cognate with the word berek, “knee”. The Hebrews regarded the knees as a symbol of strength, to bend the knee is, therefore, to bend our strength before the living God, an acknowledgment of the fact that all that we are we receive from Him. In important passages of the Old Testament, this gesture appears as an expression of worship…

…***It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture – insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. ***The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

The highlighted passage seems to address the very point that grandfather was trying to make in his post. As far as I can tell, to support this notion of not kneeling just to conform with the rest of the assembly just does not jibe with the posture that the Church has held to be sacred during the consecration.

I can understand if a condition like arthritis or some other issue can hinder someone from kneeling;however, perfecftly able-bodied men and women should be able to kneel before the Lord during the consecration. Not having a kneeler isn’t a good enough excuse.

 

[grandfather]

I can understand if a condition like arthritis or some other issue can hinder someone from kneeling;however, perfecftly able-bodied men and women should be able to kneel before the Lord during the consecration. Not having a kneeler isn’t a good enough excuse.

It is just that, an excuse. Imagine that you were walking down the street and turned the corner and Jesus was standing in front of you. What would you do? Would you stick out your hand to shake hands and say “nice to meet you Jesus”? Would you bow your knee and call Him Lord? Would you say, “Jesus, I would get on my knees before you to acknowledge you as my savior and king, but there isn’t a kneeler to kneel on so I hope you don’t mind if I stand here”? Would you look around to see what everyone else was doing and then decide what to do? Would you have a big discussion with the people in the vicinity and take a vote? Would you wonder what people did in other places? Maybe, just maybe, you would fall on your knees by instinct.

At Mass we are in the presence of Jesus Christ. He comes to us from heaven and feeds us. He is there, body, blood, soul and diviinity. Those who try to change the tradition in the Roman Church are trying to undermine this truth and the faith of the people in His Real Presence.

It is true that in the Eastern Church people stand. They stand for the entire Liturgy, except in America. There are benches up against the wall for people too old or infirm to stand for a couple of hours. The idea is “we stand for Christ”. That is their tradition. It fits well in the Eastern Liturgies. It is a different mindset, a different way of approaching theology and it is beautiful. Everything is different, the vestments, altar and tabernacle, iconostasis, holy doors, etc. You can’t mix and match as you can not waltz and tap dance at the same time.

The Church is in a period of confusion. Think about a couple or people learning how to dance together. At first they stumble a little, because they are new at it and don’t remember what to do next. Once they get the pattern down they are able to anticipate what will happen next and the dance goes smoothly without tripping. They don’t think about what to do next, but they just do it. So the whole dance floor is filled with couples waltzing together.

Liturgy is the work of the people. The whole church is full of people worshipping together and it is universal around the world. No matter where you go you should have no trouble getting out on the floor and waltzing. But for some reason it is not happening smoothly now. It did for many centuries, but it broke down. People don’t know what to do anymore so the dance breaks down and there is a big debate over many issues. We are stumbling through and making a mess. This confusion is costly, because worship which should come naturally by now is clumsy and confused. Even the people who are supposed to be giving the dancing lessons don’t know what is going on anymore. The evidence of that is all the discussion on what to do and how tyo do it.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

It is just that, an excuse. Imagine that you were walking down the street and turned the corner and Jesus was standing in front of you. What would you do? Would you stick out your hand to shake hands and say “nice to meet you Jesus”? Would you bow your knee and call Him Lord? Would you say, “Jesus, I would get on my knees before you to acknowledge you as my savior and king, but there isn’t a kneeler to kneel on so I hope you don’t mind if I stand here”?

Trust me—you have no idea what you will do in a moment of total surprise (good or bad), and no matter what you think you would do or did actually do will probably not be the same as what you actually do each time.

At Mass we are in the presence of Jesus Christ. He comes to us from heaven and feeds us. He is there, body, blood, soul and diviinity. Those who try to change the tradition in the Roman Church are trying to undermine this truth and the faith of the people in His Real Presence.

And we are human, and given instructions on posture, with exceptions allowed.

“other good reasons” is pretty wide open, and certainly “the direction of the Pastor” would fall into this category.

Another clear instruction is to follow the direction of your pastor, not to kneel on the floor because you feel this is more reverent. We are also instructed to observe a uniform posture, rather than follow personal piety.

If you drop to your knees in front of Jesus and He told you to stand and embrace Him, would you remain on your knees? Have you ever heard the term “alter Christi”?

Lux

 

[steve975]

Trust me—you have no idea what you will do in a moment of total surprise (good or bad), and no matter what you think you would do or did actually do will probably not be the same as what you actually do each time.

Maybe so. But what SHOULD you do? At Mass we are not in a total moment of surprise and we have the ability to make a completely rational choice.

And we are human, and given instructions on posture, with exceptions allowed.

“other good reasons” is pretty wide open, and certainly “the direction of the Pastor” would fall into this category.

Another clear instruction is to follow the direction of your pastor, not to kneel on the floor because you feel this is more reverent. We are also instructed to observe a uniform posture, rather than follow personal piety.

If you drop to your knees in front of Jesus and He told you to stand and embrace Him, would you remain on your knees? Have you ever heard the term “alter Christi”?

Priests are also human - just like the ones who distribute Communion to non-Catholics, hold hands during the Lord’s prayer, etc.

 

[grandfather]

Trust me—you have no idea what you will do in a moment of total surprise (good or bad), and no matter what you think you would do or did actually do will probably not be the same as what you actually do each time.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Who told you that?

That is what the priest signals and/or it is assumed from lack of kneelers and the temporary location. It is adapting to the current facilities the mass is held in.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

grandfather:

No priest has the authority to change norms and make up a Mass to suit his whim.

GIRM

Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

And the instruction to the priest is to follow the direction and be obedient to Church authority.

see above

Right, but this applies to the priest and bishop as well. Your priest does not determine what that uniformity is and he has no business imposing his own preferences.

see above

If you are saying the priest has the authority to change liturgical norms you are mistaken.

see above

Lux

 

[grandfather]

That is what the priest signals and/or it is assumed from lack of kneelers and the temporary location. It is adapting to the current facilities the mass is held in.

It makes perfect sense. Not having a pillow to kneel on makes it impossible to kneel. No problem!

 

[grandfather]

GIRM

There is nothing in what you posted that says the priest can change norms. Zilch!

 

[SMHW]

There is nothing in what you posted that says the priest can change norms. Zilch!

The big question, I guess, is what constitutes “some other good reason”. Such a reason is somewhat subjective. According to Cardinal Arinze muddy ground is a good reason for a group and arthritis is a good reason for an individual.

Apparently the “lack of kneelers for those used to kneelers” and “uniformity of posture” seem like good reasons to some people but seem like excuses to others.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Thank you for clearing that up. I have never heard of a bi-ritual parish. Do you have two bishops, one for each rite?

LOL actually there are three. Greensburg, Pa is our home Diocese, Pittsburgh, Pa is the other one that the Byzantine is physically in and of course there is the Byzantine Bishop in Ohio.

Since Greensburg is where our home is we are obligated to follow their norms if there is a conflict.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

It makes perfect sense. Not having a pillow to kneel on makes it impossible to kneel. No problem!

While many could do it in those circumstances with great discomfort, there are many who could not be able to do it period (disabled, senior citizens, etc…). Too much discomfort and you are focusing only on your sore knees and not the mass, which I think is how many priests look at it and the polices have been written too.

 

[tee_eff_em]

LOL actually there are three. Greensburg, Pa is our home Diocese, Pittsburgh, Pa is the other one that the Byzantine is physically in and of course there is the Byzantine Bishop in Ohio.

Since Greensburg is where our home is we are obligated to follow their norms if there is a conflict.

But you, as a layman, are subject only to the Ordinary of the rite into which you were baptized (presuming one has jurisdiction – if you dwelt *in partibus infidelium *I got no idea).

At least according to my understanding.

Which does not, naturally, prevent you nor anyone else from partaking the sacraments in a rite other than your own.

tee
Who is Not A Canon Lawyer

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

There is nothing in what you posted that says the priest can change norms. Zilch!

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.

It is not up to you to decide if the pastor’s reason is “good”. RS has instructed you how to handle a perceived liturgical abuse.

Lux

 

[grandfather]

The big question, I guess, is what constitutes "some other good reason". Such a reason is somewhat subjective. According to Cardinal Arinze muddy ground is a good reason for a group and arthritis is a good reason for an individual.

Apparently the “lack of kneelers for those used to kneelers” and “uniformity of posture” seem like good reasons to some people but seem like excuses to others.

For many years churches built before VII were renovated according to a document produced by a committee put together by the USCCB that was purported to be an official guideline for remodelling churches. It was never approved by the bishops, but nevertheless was used by the renovators to justify tearing up churches according to the guidelines of this document with no official authority. I do not remember the name of it. I am getting to the point where the memory is slipping.

In a number of churches that were redone the kneelers were torn out. In some new churches they did not install any. What would be the point of this? What was the objective? We must no longer need them, right? This was by design. No kneelers, can’t kneel.

Cdl. George took over Chicago and visited the seminary and the seminarians did not kneel during their Mass. The Cdl. instructed the rector that the seminarians were to kneel. The rector said they could not kneel, because they did not have enough money to buy kneelers. The Cdl. said, “I did not tell you to buy kneelers, I told you to kneel”.

Uniformity of posture is another excuse not to kneel. In my parish there are elderly nuns too infirm to stand or kneel. There are other very old people who also can not manage to stand and kneel through the entire Mass, but they do their best. Should we all sit through Mass?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Uniformity of posture is another excuse not to kneel. In my parish there are elderly nuns too infirm to stand or kneel. There are other very old people who also can not manage to stand and kneel through the entire Mass, but they do their best. Should we all sit through Mass?

I personally was giving a few possibilities. I never said all should stand because of a few who couldn’t kneel, but perhaps some parishes have a large number who cannot kneel.

And the Churches with no kneelers? However this happened, this is a fact at this point, and until it can be changed, if there are pews set in place, I doubt kneeling would be practical, since I doubt there would be enough room. All the commotion would be far more distracting than reverent. Standing with a profound bow would be far more solemn & reverent than that rukus.

You mentioned what would be done if Jesus appeared physically. When Jesus was here, He stressed obedience. He never told us to kneel, but He did tell us to obey His Church authority.

Lux