Kneeling vs Standing

[KathleenElsie]

If you are young or healthy the kneeling won’t kill you.

If you are old or feeble the kneeling just might.

Extrapilate what you will from this…

Don’t be a wimp. Lead by example.

Me. I care less if my knees get raw and shoots of pain go through them. It takes less than 10 minutes of pain to gain the maximum satisfaction of pleasing the Christ.

Did not Christ ask us to stay with him and pray a while. Not to be comfortable but to pray a while. If Jesus knelt on hard rocks and paving stones I will too. Thank you for showing me the way.

Yesterday was an outdoor Mass in the North End.

I knelt on the pavement of Endicott Street. Big Deal? Not really.

I am a Knight. I kneel for my King.

Welcome.

I must say that being old I have never in my life know of any fatalities from kneeling unless you include beheading.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Yes, I do agree—excellent points & research.

But let’s also remember not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

We are speaking of the celebration of Mass, and there should be no distractions, as far as possible. If someone has a problem, we are told how to respond—with charity outside of the celebration. We are not told to ignore the instructions of the celebrant. Our obligation to respect our priests definitely takes priority over posture.

Bishops rarely override their Pastors. I was just speaking to a friend who was just ordained a Deacon, and he was saying that a Pastor is to his Parish, what a Bishop is to his diocese. If the Pastor has a “good reason” to request standing, the Bishop will not question his judgement.

But anyone certainly may question or register a complaint. There may or may not be a response, but I doubt a Bishp will override a Pastor in this instance.

Lux

Absolutely Lux , I agree… the place to bring it up is not during Mass otherwise we might create a bigger distraction.

Unfortunately that’s exactly when presiders with that type of initiative do bring it up …right before the consecration. They force us to make an on-the-spot decision to obey an unauthorized command/request which (in the case of those who follow the directives of the US Bishops united with Rome) is opposite the norm and what we’re used to.

It’s a real can of worms. I participated in a funeral Mass exactly one week ago where the presider just let the people stand w/o instructing them to kneel or stand (believe it or not, that was the easier part to endure at that particular celebration) ; how are people supposed to know what to do in that case ? I had to keep listening sharply for the words of consecration because I couldn’t recognize any of the Eucharistic Prayer.

*.

Holy Communion was another “on-the -spot” challenge/confrontation. The priest stood in front of the communion line holding a tray. On the tray was the paten holding Holy Communion under the species of consecrated Bread and the chalice holding the Precious Blood under the species of the consecrated Wine.

He instructed the faithful to self-communicate by picking up the first sacred species themselves and then to intinct it in the second sacred species. (I know we agree here Lux… … - I read your post # 111: wrong!, wrong!, wrong!..[right?]).

I had to make an on the spot decision. It was the only reasonable chance I was going to get to receive Holy Communion that day.

This is what I did: When I realized what was happening, I said a (silent)prayer while waiting in line:
“Jesus, I know this is so wrong, but this is the only chance I’m going to have to receive you today , and I don’t really think I’ll be able to make it through the rest of this day without you. Please forgive me for picking you up instead of ‘receiving’ you as prescribed…but they’re not leaving me any choice.”

When the priest offered the chalice for intinction I politely waved him off in a manner not visible to anyone else. He didn’t seem offended by it because he came up and vigorously shook my hand and thanked me for coming and participating once the service had concluded.

Between you and me though: I won’t be going back there any time too soon (if ever) to attend Mass…even if it’s the funeral of a very dear friend, patient or dear family of a patient…even if they request me to like they did that time.

(BTW also @ Lux et Tenebrae: re. your post # 111; I also refuse to serve as an EMHC in my home parish for reasons not too foreign to yours. You have my empathy and my prayers.
I continue as a special skills lay assistant to a priest in palliative care and as EMHC to the other patients though - where there is a genuine need.)*

 

[NeedImprovement]

Welcome.

I must say that being old I have never in my life know of any fatalities from kneeling unless you include beheading.

I don’t think it’s too highly recommended to kneel in the deep end of a swimming pool…

 

[grandfather]

One of the themes that keeps echoing here is that if someone has a problem there are places to take it. The problem is not with the laity who demand to follow norms. The problem is with the priests who insist on disobeying them.

 

[NeedImprovement]

One of the themes that keeps echoing here is that if someone has a problem there are places to take it. The problem is not with the laity who demand to follow norms. The problem is with the priests who insist on disobeying them.

My spiritual director told me he knows of priests who even refused to accept certain assignments to another parish. When the bishop said they were obliged to go, they threatened to leave the priesthood … doesn’t sound too obedient to me.

Remember that at ordination all priests take 2 vows; priests of a religious order take 3.

• The vow of celibacy.
• The vow of obedience to the bishop.

All priests - both diocesan and religious order take those two vows.

• The religious order priests also take a vow of poverty.

I don’t think it’s such a healthy thing for the Church in general to have the people follow in consistent repetetive disobedience and just stay quiet. That only allows it to continue, and far too often complaints fall on deaf ears.

I feel sorry for the young ones just around the age of making their first Holy Communion who are caught in a parish where that happens on a regular basis. Think of all the implications that could hold for the future faith of a young one ( or perhaps more accurately future lack of faith.)

Although we human beings have intellect and spirit, we are also sensual. So we need signs and symbols and postures to help us stay in touch with our faith and grow in it.

Take away kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament, and you’re eroding the sense of the sacred. Is it any wonder a significant amount of Catholics don’t believe in the “true presence” anymore? I wonder what the accurate figures in this regard really are.

“The Mass is just a meal” - those words cut me to the heart every time I hear or read them.

ADORO TE DEVOTE

By St. Thomas Aquinas; translated by G.M. Hopkins s.j.

**Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore

Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more

See, Lord, at Thy service low lies here a heart

Lost, all lost in wonder at the God Thou art.

Seeing, touching, tasting are in Thee deceived;

How says trusty hearing? That shall be believed;

What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
Truth Himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true. **

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Between you and me though: I won’t be going back there any time too soon (if ever) to attend Mass…even if it’s the funeral of a very dear friend, patient or dear family of a patient…even if they request me to like they did that time.

I would never refuse to attend any funeral because of the minister, regardless of the religion. I would not even refuse Communion, unles it was an invalid consecration. I do think compassion would take priority in my judgement.

Lux

 

[NeedImprovement]

I would never refuse to attend any funeral because of the minister, regardless of the religion. I would not even refuse Communion, unles it was an invalid consecration. I do think compassion would take priority in my judgement.

Lux

I believe, in some ways, you’re a better person than I.

To clarify a little: It isn’t actually the minister himself personally who I take exception with. I had to confer with him before the Mass and (as explained previously) we also met again afterwards. At all times we were most cordial and both encounters included a handshake ( I can tell you that on my part the handshake was genuine…*).

I think these excerpts from the Encyclical INESTIMABILE DONUM might explain where I’m at (bold text treatment is mine):

Inaestimabile Donum
Instruction Concerning Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery
Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980

Foreword

…The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.”(8) And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: “Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense.”(9) end of foreword]

…9. Eucharistic Communion. Communion is a gift of the Lord, given to the faithful through the minister appointed for this purpose.** It is not permitted that the faithful should themselves pick up the consecrated bread **and the sacred chalice, still less that they should hand them from one to another . …

It probably isn’t the best choice of word here, but I’ve been “ambushed” (bewildered) so many times now … in the case at hand, I was forced to do something forbidden in order to receive Holy Communion that day, knowing full well what the encyclical says. The gravity far surpasses that of simple decorum; I believe it to be more a case of justice - rendering to God Himself what is due to Him, in the way Holy Mother Church tells us to. The very fact that the above encyclical had to be written in 1980 should be an indicator. I guess I just can’t handle being forced to receive Communion that forbidden way, when circumstances prevented me from being able to go elsewhere to a Mass afterwards that day.

Having a family come up and stand on either side of the priest at the altar , holding hands, (presumably in the name of inclusivity) from the preface right through to the final doxology both conveys the distinct impression of the family being concelebrants and obscures the true meaning of concelebration. Below the surface there would appear to be some type of misunderstanding or distortion in differentiation between the ministerial and common priesthoods. (I think i’m drifting a little off topic).*

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I believe, in some ways, you’re a better person than I.

Oh I doubt that!!! We just see certain things differently

from your earlier post

He instructed the faithful to self-communicate by picking up the first sacred species themselves and then to intinct it in the second sacred species. (I know we agree here Lux… … - I read your post # 111: wrong!, wrong!, wrong!..[right?]).

Yes, this is certainly wrong, but the error is on the part of the minister, not the communicant in this instance. If I could not be certain the consecration was invalid, I would receive…If I were certain the consecrtion was invalid, I would pray, and offer suppport to the family, and not mention the service, unless I was directly asked.

I do agree that I would not attend that Parish, if I had another option, but would not refuse to attend a funeral (or wedding) there.

I would also go there, if there was no other Mass available to me on Sunday.

Lux

 

[NeedImprovement]

…We just see certain things differently…

I would pray, and offer suppport to the family, and not mention the service, unless I was directly asked…

Lux

Apparently we see certain things the same too. I made sure not to mention any of that to the family. In one way it makes me very grateful for CAF for providing a forum where it can be discussed.

 

[yola_dawn]

Welcome and come back often.
What year of schooling are you in?

thank you. yes im kind of addicted to this checking it out every other day or so and i only joined about 2 weeks ago…
year 13 (last year of sixth form), so yes im a youngie learning more about the faith every day.
ave maria

 

[steve975]

Just an update about this. I again attended Mass at this same parish last weekend, only this time the side hall without the kneelers was closed off. So the entire congregation was in the main area which has kneelers (the balcony does not have kneelers, but it is small and there was no need for people to have to sit up there because there was plenty of room in the main area that day). Even so, the congregation still remained standing rather than kneeling. This seems to further undermine the justification that the purpose for standing in this parish is due to a lack of kneelers in the side hall.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

In all fairness, I doubt anyone would change a custom for one Mass.

Lux

 

[NeedImprovement]

@steve975 :

Lux et Tenebrae has a point.

I wonder how much it would cost to build a permanent wall to seal off the side hall from the nave of the church …