Kneeling While Serving at the Altar?

[OhMalley]

Several years ago I was asked (as an adult) to be an altar server as some of our Masses have essentially zero children in attendance. I agreed and have been serving Mass ever since. I kneel beginning with the end of the Sanctus and stand again with the conclusion of the Great Amen as directed by the GIRM (please let’s not re-hash that – that’s not in contention – it’s well known.)

My kneeling does not sit well with the “liturgy committee” who I had/have very little respect. I was given several excuses for their demands – “we want a uniform posture”, “there are no room for kneelers (not true) so you shouldn’t kneel”, “the bishop wants servers to stand (again, not true)”, “what if you serve with someone who cannot kneel?”, etc. This on-going struggle took place over a number of years when we had a revolving-door of pastors who really couldn’t have cared less. At one point we were pastorless and I was forbidden from serving. I was put back on the schedule when an influential parishioner ($$$) interceeded on my behalf without my knowledge.

When our new pastor began about two years ago (a good guy) the issue became moot. Kneel or don’t kneel – server’s choice (yes I know she should have set kneeling as the standard.) Now I have been told by the liturgy committee that those servers who wish to kneel must leave the sanctuary at the Sanctus and kneel in the nearest pew. I guess it wouldn’t be such a big deal except for three things:

• It’s bad liturgy. Leaving the sanctuary at the Sanctus and then re-entering at the Great Amen is disruptive.
• With some of our older fill-in priests, I really like to be close-by at all times.
• It appears my pastor finally gave-in to the demands of the highly political liturgy committee.

So what should I do? I think I am going to talk to my pastor about it (or at least e-mail him) but I am really torn otherwise. I really don’t want to be disobdient and I really don’t want to be disruptive during the Mass. At the same time I don’t want to play a “jr. priest” (which some seem to love) and stand at a time when the Church says I should be kneeling.

Any ideas? Thanks.

 

[Walden]

Well, I’ll tell you what I would do. Have a chat with the pastor and tell him how you feel. He is the only one to whom you need to be obedient. He is the liturgy committee as far as I’m concerned. Don’t let yourself be bullied.

You mentioned a lack of kneelers. Does that mean you’re the odd one out in the whole church?

 

[AJV]

Several years ago I was asked (as an adult) to be an altar server as some of our Masses have essentially zero children in attendance. I agreed and have been serving Mass ever since. I kneel beginning with the end of the Sanctus and stand again with the conclusion of the Great Amen as directed by the GIRM (please let’s not re-hash that – that’s not in contention – it’s well known.)

My kneeling does not sit well with the “liturgy committee” who I had/have very little respect. I was given several excuses for their demands – “we want a uniform posture”, “there are no room for kneelers (not true) so you shouldn’t kneel”, “the bishop wants servers to stand (again, not true)”, “what if you serve with someone who cannot kneel?”, etc. This on-going struggle took place over a number of years when we had a revolving-door of pastors who really couldn’t have cared less. At one point we were pastorless and I was forbidden from serving. I was put back on the schedule when an influential parishioner ($$$) interceeded on my behalf without my knowledge.

When our new pastor began about two years ago (a good guy) the issue became moot. Kneel or don’t kneel – server’s choice (yes I know she should have set kneeling as the standard.) Now I have been told by the liturgy committee that those servers who wish to kneel must leave the sanctuary at the Sanctus and kneel in the nearest pew. I guess it wouldn’t be such a big deal except for three things:

• It’s bad liturgy. Leaving the sanctuary at the Sanctus and then re-entering at the Great Amen is disruptive.
• With some of our older fill-in priests, I really like to be close-by at all times.
• It appears my pastor finally gave-in to the demands of the highly political liturgy committee.

So what should I do? I think I am going to talk to my pastor about it (or at least e-mail him) but I am really torn otherwise. I really don’t want to be disobdient and I really don’t want to be disruptive during the Mass. At the same time I don’t want to play a “jr. priest” (which some seem to love) and stand at a time when the Church says I should be kneeling.

Any ideas? Thanks.

I had the same problem in my current parish. I was VERY used to kneeling where I came from - you went down for the Blessed Sacrament even if you were standing outside the church on the pavement – for at least the Institution.

Then here I started serving Mass every day and the practice was for people in the sanctuary to stand. The priests all deferred to the decision of other people in the parish who wanted standing for various reasons (can’t kneel on the floor, there are some elderly people, vesture will get dirty, and so on). So the result was that I knelt for weekday Masses when there are barely any people (and no one else in the sanctuary except me and the priest) and so no one says anything, but stand for all Solemnities and Sunday Masses. I used to genuflect with the priest at the elevations but then someone objected to that as well, so I now bow profoundly (monastic profoundly).

It’s just better if you can’t convince people/ to follow the liturgical law, for whatever reason, to just swallow it and pray, and hope that pastor will put his foot down. It’s always good to have reverent servers. Leaving the sanctuary is a bad idea liturgically since your function is to minister at the altar. Try to minister as reverently as possible and let your devotion for the Blessed Sacrament show through your posture and in other ways ( like genuflections, the way you handle the sacred vessels, general decorum). You can maybe even work within the restriction to “differentiate” yourself from the priest e.g. standing during the Prayer with head slightly bowed.

 

[Mike_Dye]

I would kneel at the correct time. Forget the liturgy committee and their made up rules.

 

[withwind]

My kneeling does not sit well with the “liturgy committee” who I had/have very little respect.

I would kneel at the correct time. Forget the liturgy committee and their made up rules.

If there is a liturgy committee, then one should work with them and the pastor and one must respect them. Having discussion with them is very important to come to some understanding and agreement. As a parish, no one is really running the parish or a ministry by himself. Working together will make one’s parish stronger.

One can do what he thinks is right but having lack of working with others to sort out in differences can bring divisions.

 

[OhMalley]

I would kneel at the correct time. Forget the liturgy committee and their made up rules.

I used to – it even got me taken off the schedule at one point. But the question is, should I really leave the sanctuary and kneel in the pews? Heck, maybe that’s the right thing to do but it sure seems disruptive. There seems like no reason too. It seem like bad liturgy.

 

[OhMalley]

Well, I’ll tell you what I would do. Have a chat with the pastor and tell him how you feel. He is the only one to whom you need to be obedient. He is the liturgy committee as far as I’m concerned. Don’t let yourself be bullied.

You mentioned a lack of kneelers. Does that mean you’re the odd one out in the whole church?

At the Mass I attend we have 3 adult servers who rotate serving duties. 2 of us kneel, 1 does not. They all kneel at the Latino Mass. I don’t think any of the other servers at the other Masses realize we are supposed to kneel. Some even SIT…

 

[OhMalley]

If there is a liturgy committee, then one should work with them and the pastor and one must respect them. Having discussion with them is very important to come to some understanding and agreement. As a parish, no one is really running the parish or a ministry by himself. Working together will make one’s parish stronger.

One can do what he thinks is right but having lack of working with others to sort out in differences can bring divisions.

Our liturgy committee is a joke – as are most. It’s made up 100% of females who desparately try to gain power and turf even amongst themselves. It’s very sad. It’s actually probably a sick environment.

Our pastor is OK and I guess maybe that’s what bothers me. Did this come from himself or the bishop or did the liturgy committee finally wear him down? They have largely been a non-issue since he arrived 2.5 years ago. I hope this is not the beginning of their resurgence…

 

[OhMalley]

I had the same problem in my current parish. I was VERY used to kneeling where I came from - you went down for the Blessed Sacrament even if you were standing outside the church on the pavement – for at least the Institution.

Then here I started serving Mass every day and the practice was for people in the sanctuary to stand. The priests all deferred to the decision of other people in the parish who wanted standing for various reasons (can’t kneel on the floor, there are some elderly people, vesture will get dirty, and so on). So the result was that I knelt for weekday Masses when there are barely any people (and no one else in the sanctuary except me and the priest) and so no one says anything, but stand for all Solemnities and Sunday Masses. I used to genuflect with the priest at the elevations but then someone objected to that as well, so I now bow profoundly (monastic profoundly).

It’s just better if you can’t convince people/ to follow the liturgical law, for whatever reason, to just swallow it and pray, and hope that pastor will put his foot down. It’s always good to have reverent servers. Leaving the sanctuary is a bad idea liturgically since your function is to minister at the altar. Try to minister as reverently as possible and let your devotion for the Blessed Sacrament show through your posture and in other ways ( like genuflections, the way you handle the sacred vessels, general decorum). You can maybe even work within the restriction to “differentiate” yourself from the priest e.g. standing during the Prayer with head slightly bowed.

You make some very good points – some which I would not have agreed with a few years ago yet I do today. Now that I have some 1,000+ served Masses under my belt I know that I “did it right” for several years and I think God and most of the faithful know that as well. In other words I’ve got nothing to prove and if this ultimately keeps me from serving it’s something I can live with.

In the final analysis I think what bothers me most is this sorta petty garbage is what keep people away from the Mass. I truly believe these liturgy committee type people have driven away many good people from the Church.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Aramis]

The Liturgy committee has NO authority. Only the finance committee has any authority, and that is limited.

Can. 536 §1. If the diocesan bishop judges it opportune after he has heard the presbyteral council, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish, over which the pastor presides and in which the Christian faithful, together with those who share in pastoral care by virtue of their office in the parish, assist in fostering pastoral activity.

§2. **A pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only **and is governed by the norms established by the diocesan bishop.

Can. 537 In each parish there is to be a finance council which is governed, in addition to universal law, by norms issued by the diocesan bishop and in which the Christian faithful, selected according to these same norms, are to assist the pastor in the administration of the goods of the parish, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 532.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1U.HTM Bold mine.

 

[Phemie]

Your liturgy committee should be following the GIRM but, it’s true that often they do not.

I chaired our LC until the day I was told, by the pastor and the assitant pastor, that I had to train the EMHCs to distribute communion any time they were scheduled, even if that meant that 2 priests sat down to allow it. When I pointed out that that flew in the face of four separate documents on EMHCs the assistant pastor stood up, wagged his finger in my face and yelled “We’ve never paid attention to the documents and we’re not about to start now.” That’s when I realized that all the work I’d done familiarizing myself with all the liturgical documents was for nothing since they couldn’t have cared less about Rome’s directives. I handed in my resignation.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Several years ago I was asked (as an adult) to be an altar server as some of our Masses have essentially zero children in attendance. I agreed and have been serving Mass ever since. I kneel beginning with the end of the Sanctus and stand again with the conclusion of the Great Amen as directed by the GIRM (please let’s not re-hash that – that’s not in contention – it’s well known.)

My kneeling does not sit well with the “liturgy committee” who I had/have very little respect. I was given several excuses for their demands – “we want a uniform posture”, “there are no room for kneelers (not true) so you shouldn’t kneel”, “the bishop wants servers to stand (again, not true)”, “what if you serve with someone who cannot kneel?”, etc. This on-going struggle took place over a number of years when we had a revolving-door of pastors who really couldn’t have cared less. At one point we were pastorless and I was forbidden from serving. I was put back on the schedule when an influential parishioner ($$$) interceeded on my behalf without my knowledge.

When our new pastor began about two years ago (a good guy) the issue became moot. Kneel or don’t kneel – server’s choice (yes I know she should have set kneeling as the standard.) Now I have been told by the liturgy committee that those servers who wish to kneel must leave the sanctuary at the Sanctus and kneel in the nearest pew. I guess it wouldn’t be such a big deal except for three things:

• It’s bad liturgy. Leaving the sanctuary at the Sanctus and then re-entering at the Great Amen is disruptive.
• With some of our older fill-in priests, I really like to be close-by at all times.
• It appears my pastor finally gave-in to the demands of the highly political liturgy committee.

So what should I do? I think I am going to talk to my pastor about it (or at least e-mail him) but I am really torn otherwise. I really don’t want to be disobdient and I really don’t want to be disruptive during the Mass. At the same time I don’t want to play a “jr. priest” (which some seem to love) and stand at a time when the Church says I should be kneeling.

Any ideas? Thanks.

It seems that the Pastor should explain to the parish committees that thier role is to advise HIM on matters in their area. They do not make or enforce policy. There may be specific persons “in charge” of servers, EMHC, Ushers, etc. who are given their supervisory authority by him.

Servers should kneel where all people should kneel, there should be uniform posture as stated in the GIRM, in accord with the GIRM.

A Liturgical minister who begins Mass and has a function through out the Mass should remain in the sanctuary from beginning to end. With proper postures and positions being observed by them.

 

[withwind]

Our liturgy committee is a joke – as are most. It’s made up 100% of females who desparately try to gain power and turf even amongst themselves. It’s very sad. It’s actually probably a sick environment.

Our pastor is OK and I guess maybe that’s what bothers me. Did this come from himself or the bishop or did the liturgy committee finally wear him down? They have largely been a non-issue since he arrived 2.5 years ago. I hope this is not the beginning of their resurgence…

You sound very disappointed. I hope you all can work this out, otherwise, it will make your time of serving the mass bitter and this will defeat the purpose of what you are doing.

 

[OhMalley]

You sound very disappointed. I hope you all can work this out, otherwise, it will make your time of serving the mass bitter and this will defeat the purpose of what you are doing.

I served Mass this morning for my pastor. I left the sanctuary at the end of the Sanctus and re-entered at the end of the Great Amen. It was terribly disruptive – the celebrant had to wait on me both times and I was moving faster than I should have been.

On Sundays I could probably “cheat” and begin moving during the Sanctus but that too would be wrong. Given that the faithful learned to stand AFTER the Great Amen only after watching me years ago I’m not about to be in motion during the Great Amen – it would be wrong anyway.

This is flat-out bad liturgy.

<— that’s how I feel. I did feel like this —> so there is some improvement…

 

[OhMalley]

I suppose I could wait until the sign of peace after the Lord’s Prayer to re-enter the sanctuary. That way the celebrant could shake his own hand…

 

[bpbasilphx]

As the Pastor (or celebrant) what he prefers, follow his directions, and tell the liturgy committee to take a flying leap if they don’t like it.

 

[datingtrappists]

At the Parish that I currently performing canting duties, it is the “norm” for the cantor to not kneel during the consecration. I’ve broke with the norm on that after consulting the priest (who encouraged me to follow my own conscience in this matter), and will kneel from after the Sanctus, stand up and cant during the Memorial Acclaimation (as it appears this congregations needs someone to lead them during all sang responses), and kneel again until before the Great Amen, where I will lead the congregation again. I receive the Eucharist at the same time as the altar servers and the EMHC. I then lead the congregation in the Communion hymn, and after my part is done (and the pianist keeps playing “meditation” music till the end of the purification) I will kneel again and pray.

My advise is to also follow your own conscience in this matter. If the “Liturgy Committee” has problems… well, they are not following Rome in this matter, and it really is their problem. Of course, keep praying for them, but when objections are brought up, show them the documents that refutes their position (always with charity [not that I’m suggesting or insinuating that you would do otherwise] ) and keep doing what you know to be right.

E

 

[bpbasilphx]

FWIW, in the Muscovite use, cantors, readers, and choir are forbidden to kneel or make prostrations during services, doubtless for strictly practical reasons.

 

[Aramis]

FWIW, in the Muscovite use, cantors, readers, and choir are forbidden to kneel or make prostrations during services, doubtless for strictly practical reasons.

Likewise, throughout the Byzantine Rite, from Pascha (easter) until Ascension, no kneeling is permitted.

Kneeling has different meanings in the different rites; examination of them is outside the scope of the OP’s question, Father Bishop.

It is worth repeating, however, that the celebrant, the pastor, and the Bishop have authority; the litrugy council has no authority, only a formal mode of (name removed by moderator)ut to the pastor.

 

[OhMalley]

…It is worth repeating, however, that the celebrant, the pastor, and the Bishop have authority; the litrugy council has no authority, only a formal mode of (name removed by moderator)ut to the pastor.

That’s the whole point. It appears the liturgy committee finally wore down my pastor to “get their way.”

I’m fairly sure they figured I and others would choose to stand (their preference) before being disruptive by leaving and re-entering the sanctuary during the Mass.