Kneeling While Serving at the Altar?

[Claire_from_DE]

In my parish, only the priest and deacon remain standing. They genuflect after the consecration. This leads me to believe that perhaps only the ordained should stand. If you were to stand it seems to blur the distinction between the ordained and the laity. However, IMHO it would be better to stand and bow reverently than be disruptive by leaving the sanctuary if those are your only choices. Ask your pastor to advise you. Too bad about the problems with the committee.

 

[OhMalley]

In my parish, only the priest and deacon remain standing. They genuflect after the consecration. This leads me to believe that perhaps only the ordained should stand. If you were to stand it seems to blur the distinction between the ordained and the laity. However, IMHO it would be better to stand and bow reverently than be disruptive by leaving the sanctuary if those are your only choices. Ask your pastor to advise you. Too bad about the problems with the committee.

Deacons are supposed to kneel during the concecration if they are able to:

*GIRM 179. During the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands near the priest but slightly behind him, so that when needed he may assist the priest with the chalice or the Missal.

From the epiclesis until the priest shows the chalice, the deacon normally remains kneeling. If several deacons are present, one of them may place incense in the thurible for the consecration and incense the host and the chalice as they are shown to the people.*

Even priests who are not celebrating/concelebrating (MCs for example) should kneel at the consecration.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I used to – it even got me taken off the schedule at one point. But the question is, should I really leave the sanctuary and kneel in the pews? Heck, maybe that’s the right thing to do but it sure seems disruptive. There seems like no reason too. It seem like bad liturgy.

O’Malley:

I’m kind of NOTORIOUS for having a G.I.R.M. on my computer. If you haven’t already, download a copy (It’s available in pdf) & then print out the applicable sections. Ask for an appointment with your Pastor. When you see him, describe the situation as you described it here, and asked him how that conforms to the G.I.R.M., and show him the applicable section (which I hope you’ll have highlighted). BE POLITE and COURTEOUS. You’re trying to show him that the Liturgy Committee is disobeying the Church’s KEY DOCUMENT on the Liturgy and that what they’re doing is simply NOT licit.

Once you’ve succeeded, you’re going to need to meet with him and the head of the Liturgy Committee - It’s also important that you be prepared for that meeting & that you bring your copy of the G.I.R.M… You know your Pastor better than I do, and you know how firmly he’ll stand on principle once he understands the principle, or how quickly he’ll accommodate whoever is more persuasive or louder.

If he gives in, I’d stop serving - I wouldn’t serve a Liturgy that didn’t conform to the G.I.R.M… If it looks like he’s going to give in, you might even mention that you were serving AS A FAVOR, and that you don’t wish to serve in a Liturgy that disregards the Church’s own instructions on the Liturgy. It’s a RISKY Play, but it is what I’d do.

I wouldn’t go kneel in the congregation - I would do exactly what I just suggested. The Liturgy of the Catholic Church is important enough to do RIGHT, and it’s important enough to FIGHT FOR.

This isn’t just for you - The Liturgy is the MAIN WAY the Church teaches the Catholic Faith to Catholics and is ONE of the MAIN WAYS the Church preaches the Gospel of Christ to Unbelievers. and, They all have the RIGHT to an Obedient and Reverently done Divine Liturgy. This isn’t a PRIVILEGE reserved for those who are fortunate enough to belong to RCC parishes who OBEY the norms of the G.I.R.M., other Catholic Churches in Communion with Pope Benedict XVI, Eastern Orthodox Churches or some Anglican parishes in the Anglican “Continuum”. Catholics shouldn’t have to go searching for reverent Liturgies that are done in conformity with the norms of the G.I.R.M…

I hope this helps you figure this out.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

FWIW, in the Muscovite use, cantors, readers, and choir are forbidden to kneel or make prostrations during services, doubtless for strictly practical reasons.

Father Bishop Basil:

From what some other Orthodox Brothers have told me, NO ONE KNEELS or makes Prostrations in the East (except during Great Lent), but everyone (except the Priest celebrant) Profoundly bows from the waist forward during the Canon of the Mass. They taught me how to do it because the problems with my lower spine (and my balance) ruled out genuflection.

I would have no objections if the G.I.R.M. allowed this Oriental practice in our Western Churches, but I don’t think the Liturgical Committee at OhMalley’s parish is talking about or thinking about these things.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

P.S.: I’d also have NO objections if I could learn how to type!

 

[Pax_Vobiscum_57]

My parish has prie-deux for the lectors and the servers. My husband’s parish has pillows on the marble steps of the alter for the servers. Perhaps you could suggest one of these options.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

That’s the whole point. It appears the liturgy committee finally wore down my pastor to “get their way.”

I’m fairly sure they figured I and others would choose to stand (their preference) before being disruptive by leaving and re-entering the sanctuary during the Mass.

O’Malley:

This is something you can do if “the Meeting” doesn’t work, and you still want to pursue things at your parish.

It’s as I said in my previous post - You and your fellow Altar Servers (those who understand the Liturgy & agree with you) have to convince your Pastor that this isn’t such a minor matter and that you’ll back him when he goes against the Liturgy Committee. It might even be better if a couple of you would volunteer to serve on that committee so the committee stops pressuring your Pastor to disobey the G.I.R.M…

It sounds as if your Pastor doesn’t understand when he can compromise in order to make peace and when he should stand on principle. Since he compromised in order to make peace, you need to make it clear that there will be no peace as long as your parish doesn’t follow the NORMS of the Catholic Church as expressed in the G.I.R.M… For this to work, you’ll need to convince some people to join you, and you’ll have to form a “Squeaky Wheels” club - You’re going to need some “Allies”.

The Liturgy Committee got their way by “wearing him down” - be prepared to do the same. I know it’s NOT NICE, but it’s “fighting fire with fire”. Remember, This is one way to bring about compliance with the norms of the Church if “the Meeting” doesn’t work…

I know the Liturgy Committee won’t like it, but just remind the members of the committee that you’re only doing as they did. They’ll probably like it even less when you point out that this how they “got their way”.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

P.S.: Either Way, get a couple of people who believe in the Liturgy and in Obedience to the Norms of the Church on the Liturgy Committee and solve this situation ONCE AND FOR ALL.

 

[OhMalley]

O’Malley:

I’m kind of NOTORIOUS for having a G.I.R.M. on my computer. If you haven’t already, download a copy (It’s available in pdf) & then print out the applicable sections. Ask for an appointment with your Pastor. When you see him, describe the situation as you described it here, and asked him how that conforms to the G.I.R.M., and show him the applicable section (which I hope you’ll have highlighted). BE POLITE and COURTEOUS. You’re trying to show him that the Liturgy Committee is disobeying the Church’s KEY DOCUMENT on the Liturgy and that what they’re doing is simply NOT licit.

Please note I quoted the GIRM in the posting just before your own. Please also note he has not prohibited me from kneeling – only that I must leave the sanctuary in order to do it.

Once you’ve succeeded, you’re going to need to meet with him and the head of the Liturgy Committee - It’s also important that you be prepared for that meeting & that you bring your copy of the G.I.R.M… You know your Pastor better than I do, and you know how firmly he’ll stand on principle once he understands the principle, or how quickly he’ll accommodate whoever is more persuasive or louder.

The liturgy committee is a non-issue except that they gnaw-away at HIM.

If he gives in, I’d stop serving - I wouldn’t serve a Liturgy that didn’t conform to the G.I.R.M… If it looks like he’s going to give in, you might even mention that you were serving AS A FAVOR, and that you don’t wish to serve in a Liturgy that disregards the Church’s own instructions on the Liturgy. It’s a RISKY Play, but it is what I’d do.

By leaving the sanctuary I am not contravining the liturgy to my understanding. If I am I would like to see where. My other option – standing when I am able to kneel (something I would never do) does contravene the GIRM from my interpretation.

I wouldn’t go kneel in the congregation - I would do exactly what I just suggested. The Liturgy of the Catholic Church is important enough to do RIGHT, and it’s important enough to FIGHT FOR.

I really have no desire to play the martyr but I’m going to likely get “fired” from this ministry. I knelt where I have for the past 8 years while serving the Mass this morning because I was not about to ring the sanctus bells from the pews. The other server who kneels asked the celebrant (not the pastor) if we had to stand or leave the sanctuary and he said “I don’t care what you do so long as you are reverent.” Since he celebrates most of the Masses I attend he has really opened the door.

This isn’t just for you - The Liturgy is the MAIN WAY the Church teaches the Catholic Faith to Catholics and is ONE of the MAIN WAYS the Church preaches the Gospel of Christ to Unbelievers. and, They all have the RIGHT to an Obedient and Reverently done Divine Liturgy. This isn’t a PRIVILEGE reserved for those who are fortunate enough to belong to RCC parishes who OBEY the norms of the G.I.R.M., other Catholic Churches in Communion with Pope Benedict XVI, Eastern Orthodox Churches or some Anglican parishes in the Anglican “Continuum”. Catholics shouldn’t have to go searching for reverent Liturgies that are done in conformity with the norms of the G.I.R.M…

I hope this helps you figure this out.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

Please don’t try to co-mingle Catholics, Orthodox and Anglican Protestants.

 

[OhMalley]

My parish has prie-deux for the lectors and the servers. My husband’s parish has pillows on the marble steps of the alter for the servers. Perhaps you could suggest one of these options.

You bring up a very salient point. Kneeling on the altar steps is a common practice where the server is also outside of the sanctuary…

While I have no trouble kneeling on granite (it’s a non-issue) I have been told that there is no room for kneelers. I of course served several Masses with a kneeler that I moved over from a side chapel for several Masses just to prove that was not true…

 

[OhMalley]

Father Bishop Basil:

From what some other Orthodox Brothers have told me, NO ONE KNEELS or makes Prostrations in the East (except during Great Lent), but everyone (except the Priest celebrant) Profoundly bows from the waist forward during the Canon of the Mass. They taught me how to do it because the problems with my lower spine (and my balance) ruled out genuflection.

I would have no objections if the G.I.R.M. allowed this Oriental practice in our Western Churches, but I don’t think the Liturgical Committee at OhMalley’s parish is talking about or thinking about these things.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

P.S.: I’d also have NO objections if I could learn how to type!

Depending on the rite/recension, we most certainly kneel during Divine Liturgies in the some of the Eastern Catholic churches – but never on Sunday. We never genuflect.

 

[Aramis]

Depending on the rite/recension, we most certainly kneel during Divine Liturgies in the some of the Eastern Catholic churches – but never on Sunday. We never genuflect.

And sometimes, we even place our heads on the floor… but Romans do so only for a few select feasts and for ordinations.

The traditionalists are already up in arms at byzantifications of the Ordinary Form (and there are several), let us not give them more ammunition!

 

[OhMalley]

And sometimes, we even place our heads on the floor… but Romans do so only for a few select feasts and for ordinations.

The traditionalists are already up in arms at byzantifications of the Ordinary Form (and there are several), let us not give them more ammunition!

Reminds me of the Latin Rite “traditionalists” that struggle to kneel during the Divine Liturgy on Sundays even after the pastor has patiently and throughly explained to them that the proper posture is standing.

 

[Aramis]

Reminds me of the Latin Rite “traditionalists” that struggle to kneel during the Divine Liturgy on Sundays even after the pastor has patiently and throughly explained to them that the proper posture is standing.

Standing for communion is one of those byzantifications.

 

[Leonius]

WTH is a Liturgy Committee?

They are the problem get rid of them. My Parish Priest is retired and over 70, he manages to arrange the liturgy all by himself, if he can do it so can yours its not like you need to make it up every Sunday, Rome already did that hard part for us!

They have no authority ignore them and just deal with the Priest.

 

[OhMalley]

Standing for communion is one of those byzantifications.

I’m fairly sure the DL was not the inspiration for standing at communion during the Mass…

 

[Holland]

I served Mass this morning for my pastor. I left the sanctuary at the end of the Sanctus and re-entered at the end of the Great Amen. It was terribly disruptive – the celebrant had to wait on me both times and I was moving faster than I should have been.

What is the reason given for doing this in the first place? They started doing this about a year ago in my parish and I have no idea what the reason behind it is.

 

[OhMalley]

After thinking about this a bit more something else comes to mind.

The celebrant himself sits outside of the sanctuary at our cathedral. Yes that sounds crazy but our cathedral is tiny (smaller then most parish churches), the sanctuary is very cramped and his chair, while technically in the nave is closer to the altar (2’) than in many churches. The server sits next to him outside of the sanctuary.

I thought that was purely due to facility constraints but now I am beginning to wonder. At our basilica the priests sit off to the side of the altar which is still very elevated just as it was when it was a high altar. Servers kneels on prie dieus in the former choir area which is elevated one step from the nave, yet it’s still 3 steps below the altar.

At a neighboring parish the servers leave the rather large sanctuary and kneel on the steps.

This might well be coming down from my bishop – which would be sad. Although I think the person in charge of “training” altar servers would have mentioned that. Odd, odd, odd.

 

[whit]

At the Mass I attend we have 3 adult servers who rotate serving duties. 2 of us kneel, 1 does not. They all kneel at the Latino Mass. I don’t think any of the other servers at the other Masses realize we are supposed to kneel. Some even SIT…

OhMalley,
You are at MASS. You are an altar server. Unless doing server duties at the specific moment you are at mass and are considered an attendee., not the priest. And you are not a priest. You are a lay person. So when NOT actually performing server duties, you should assume the same postures as the rest of the congregation or if the rest of the congregation. However, if the rest of the congregation is standing when they are supposed to be kneeling, do it the way the GIRM states and your local Bishop stipulates for the congregation. EG, there are a few parishes close to the Mexican border where the local Bishops have given permission to stand at various times. Otherwise it is correct to kneel afte rthe Sanctus, etc.

The liturgical commitee is NOT the last word on the Mass postures. And as you say, your services are in the sanctuary with the priest,not in the pews. Be poliete and charitable but get with your priest and request that he take off his skirt and put his pants on and tell the liturgy committee where to get off.

I’ll tell you the truth. I’m so sick of mealy mouthed, don’t stand up for truth priests who bend to every little breeze that comes along, I could scream. And these fools who believe that committees are the rulers of parishes are power hungry. The priest is the head of the parish and the bishop above him. If these power hungry little snots want power let them go out and start their own church somewhere else. church committees are supposed to HELP the pastor. not overrule him nor push him around.

Whit

 

[Fred_Rippee]

If there is a liturgy committee, then one should work with them and the pastor and one must respect them. Having discussion with them is very important to come to some understanding and agreement. As a parish, no one is really running the parish or a ministry by himself. Working together will make one’s parish stronger.

One can do what he thinks is right but having lack of working with others to sort out in differences can bring divisions.

I greatly disagree. I was told not to kneel for Communion because it made me look ‘holier than thou’ to the rest of the congregation. I was told not to kneel for the Consecration because standing made us more of a community, and that being a community was the object of the Mass. I was told a lot of silly things by the liturgy committee, and do you know what? I kneel for Communion and I kneel for the Consecration, and I don’t care what the sanctimonious liturgy committee thinks. I told the liturgy committee that if they thought the object of the Mass was to make us more of a community, then we would have a heck of a lot more success gathering as a ‘community’ at the local pub - how ridiculous. Community. . . I kneel before my King - Jesus Christ - and, inside, I really hope that nobody else notices, because it isn’t intended to be a public display, it’s my gift to my God. I have never knelt before man, and, God willing, will never kneel before a man. My bishop at the time of the liturgy committee trying to keep me standing, who is now a Cardinal, backed my kneeling before God 100%. I follow my bishop and NOT the henhouse social club of a liturgy committee. Canon law and your bishop should be consulted, and not the local, often socially appeasing, liturgy committee (who may have the best of intentions - and we know what road is lined thusly), which usually is sadly lacking in theological and Canon knowledge.

 

[OhMalley]

OhMalley,
You are at MASS. You are an altar server. Unless doing server duties at the specific moment you are at mass and are considered an attendee., not the priest. And you are not a priest. You are a lay person. So when NOT actually performing server duties, you should assume the same postures as the rest of the congregation or if the rest of the congregation. However, if the rest of the congregation is standing when they are supposed to be kneeling, do it the way the GIRM states and your local Bishop stipulates for the congregation. EG, there are a few parishes close to the Mexican border where the local Bishops have given permission to stand at various times. Otherwise it is correct to kneel afte rthe Sanctus, etc.

What? Your comment makes no sense at all. Bottom line is there a problem with my kneeling in the sanctuary (versus standing) when the GIRM says I should be kneeling?

The liturgical commitee is NOT the last word on the Mass postures. And as you say, your services are in the sanctuary with the priest,not in the pews. Be poliete and charitable but get with your priest and request that he take off his skirt and put his pants on and tell the liturgy committee where to get off.

I’m not going to dignify that sorta attack on my pastor with a response.

I’ll tell you the truth. I’m so sick of mealy mouthed, don’t stand up for truth priests who bend to every little breeze that comes along, I could scream. And these fools who believe that committees are the rulers of parishes are power hungry. The priest is the head of the parish and the bishop above him. If these power hungry little snots want power let them go out and start their own church somewhere else. church committees are supposed to HELP the pastor. not overrule him nor push him around.

Whit

And just what are you doing to help things?

 

[OhMalley]

OhMalley;5290297:

I served Mass this morning for my pastor. I left the sanctuary at the end of the Sanctus and re-entered at the end of the Great Amen. It was terribly disruptive – the celebrant had to wait on me both times and I was moving faster than I should have been.

What is the reason given for doing this in the first place? They started doing this about a year ago in my parish and I have no idea what the reason behind it is.

No reasoning was given.