Kneeling

[Nick_L]

Trevelyan:

Yes, it would be disobedient to kneel, against the decision of the Bishop. It would also be contrary to the nature of the Sacred Liturgy, as a unified, public prayer of the Church - not our private preferences.

The Bishop is the chief Guardian of the Mysteries of God in his Diocese, the High Priest of his flock and has legitimate authority over all liturgical matters within his competence, which this issue explicitly is.

We must “cling to our Bishop as the Church does to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ does to the Father” (Lumen Gentium)

This sounds right to me. However, I was wondering if obediance to the Bishop’s directive applies when one is being directed to specifically NOT follow the GIRM.

For example: about two years ago we were directed in the Diocese of San Jose to stand during the entire Eucharistic Prayer, including the consecration. It was explained in the letter from the Bishop that we “stand and pray together as a community” at Mass and that “kneeling is a posture of private prayer”.

I, unlike most in my parish, have chosen to follow the GIRM’s, not the Bishop’s instruction.

Is this wrong?

 

[cmom]

Ah this is a tricky one.
We are bound to obey our Bishops in all things. We are also bound to obey the Church. I have been lucky so far to be in a faithful diocese, and have not had to make this choice. I honestly don’t know what I would do.

I guess I would start by asking the Bishop to explain why he chooses to disregard the GIRM.

If I didn’t get a real answer, I would write my archbishop and papal nuncio.

 

[jimmymke]

In Milwaukee, we have been directed to stand when Father begins, “Pray then, bretheren…” and remain standing until after we receive. Our pastor introduced the changes at Advent, explained this is now part of the GIRM, and we have been faithfully following them since. I saw no fuss or dissention. When visiting my folks in Arkansas at Christmas, I witnessed the same snap to it response to the changes there and saw no confusion or waffling.

I wonder what to do when I worship in other churches that haven’t adopted the new norms. I go to a noon mass at a church close to my work and we have people standing literally at four times at the beginning of the Eurcharistic prayer: at “pray bretheren,” after our “May the Lord accept…” response, after the next short prayer Father offers, and when Father says, “the Lord be with you.”
Today I remained standing after the Angus Dei and I think I was the only one. I’m torn between following my bishop and following the local custom. “When in Rome” and all that. Thoughts?

 

[Ham1]

If change is just simply standing after the “May the Lord…” (the old way) versus standing at/during/after “Pray, Brethren…” I would just follow the congregation.

If the change is standing during the consecration, I would kneel.

For the most part I would tend not to be disruptive unless the posture is clearly out of line.

 

[dantheman]

jimmymke:

I wonder what to do when I worship in other churches that haven’t adopted the new norms. I go to a noon mass at a church close to my work and we have people standing literally at four times at the beginning of the Eurcharistic prayer: at “pray bretheren,” after our “May the Lord accept…” response, after the next short prayer Father offers, and when Father says, “the Lord be with you.”
Today I remained standing after the Angus Dei and I think I was the only one. I’m torn between following my bishop and following the local custom. “When in Rome” and all that. Thoughts?

You may find that many dioceses have not yet implemented the new GIRM. Such is the case in my diocese. The catechesis has just begun on the new GIRM, which will be fully implemented in our diocese on the First Sunday of Advent, 2004.

Therefore, it’s best to simply follow the congregation.

 

[Nick_L]

It is my understanding that the GIRM instructs the faithful to kneel after the Sanctus until the end of the Great Amen, with some exceptions that do not apply in this case. I’ve seen that information on the Diocese of Santa Fe web site and in a Catholic periodical I receive.

If that is actually the case then some Bishops (based on the comments in this thread) are at best misinformed and at worst misleading their flocks.

I prefer to kneel for two reasons; I feel more reverent in that posture, and I became Catholic in some part because of the universal (Catholic) practices, doctrines, etc.

My underlying concern is the desire to be obedient. Now I’m finding obedience to mean choosing whom I am going to obey, Peter’s Successor or my own Shepard.

 

[jimmymke]

jimmymke:

In Milwaukee, we have been directed to stand when Father begins, “Pray then, bretheren…” and remain standing until after we receive.
Holy Makerel, did I misspeak. We DO kneel after the Sanctus here in Milwaukee. The changes for us (and I would presume for everyone here in the states) are standing earlier (before our first response as opposed to after) and remaining standing after the Agnus through receiving. Brain lapse. Didn’t mean to misrepresent our fine diocese and my pastor Still wondering what to do at other churches, follow tradition of the parish, or follow my shepherd.
Jimmy in Milwaukee

 

[maxk]

Nick L.:

My underlying concern is the desire to be obedient. Now I’m finding obedience to mean choosing whom I am going to obey, Peter’s Successor or my own Shepard.

Your Bishop is a legitimate authority when he makes directives which are in union with the universal Church. IOW, if he tells you to stand after the Agnus Dei, then you should stand since that is a legitimate, recognized option (even though I don’t like it ). If he tells you to stand during the consecration, then you should continue to kneel since he has no authority to contradict the rules of the universal Church. Of course, if there is a legitimate reason (ie crowding etc) then stand since that is a clearly defined exception in the GIRM.

In my own personal experience, I ended up standing when my priest tried to force this on us. IT was a very difficult decision, but I decided that it was best because:

1. I thought I was distracting to other parishioners as the lone kneeler.
2. I knew I had a hard time concentrating on the Mass while I was kneeling amongst a sea of standers. It was less distracting to me to stand.
3. I didn’t want to teach my young kids that their priest was not deserving of obedience. After all they didn’t know that it was truly the priest who was being disobedient.

Whatever you do, I think it is good to talk charitably with your priest about the bind that this puts you in. Don’t do it with a stack of documents, since he knows the relevant issues. Simply tell him how his decision affects you. Then, when nothing changes, offer it up.

 

[Nick_L]

The ironic part of the story is that after about three years of instructing us to stand, our Bishop has now instructed each parish to decide on it’s own. Then, no matter what posture is decided upon, he wants each parish to be uniform within the parish.

This seems to cause further confusion when people visit other parishes within the diocese. I’ve seen many people false start on a kneel only to remain standing. And all of these events have prompted me and my wife to attend another parish or a local Carmelite monastery where the mass is a little (or a lot) more traditional.

I just feel that this is indicative of a larger problem and that I shouldn’t just follow along when someone in leadership is in error. What if the error is more glaring, even sinful? At what point do I disobey in order to obey?

 

[pkrfan]

The purpose of the new GIRM was to get everybody doing the same thing and hopefully remove any litergical abuses. One should not have to worry about what to do when traveling from church to another in a different part of the country!

If I understand correctly, the new GIRM was to be implemented during Advent 2003. My own parish implemented it about one month prior to the official date. We have also been instructed to bow prior to recieving the body or blood of Jesus as a sign of reverence when you get to the front of the communion line. This was to replace kneeling which was done away with when the kneeling rails were removed.