K
kalt
Guest
This isn’t just a Catholic thing. All Christians have an interest in knowing if the shroud is authentic.
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K
kalt
Guest
Can it be that we agree?
I agree with you in that whether the shroud is genuine or fake is immaterial to faith. (no pun intended)
I feel the same about searches for the ark.
Too many Christians, imo, look to these items for proof to suppor their faith.
What if the shroud is a fake. So what? Jesus is the Savior. What if it is real. We already know that Jesus is the savior, and the shroud adds nothing.
We know we existed–no credible person denies this–so proving that it belonged to him proves nothing that we don’t alread know.
All people know that Jesus existed. Christians know that he is God.
What is there to gain?
There was an esuary brought out and paraded around as that belonging to Jesus. So many Christians were thrilled.
This, even if it were genuine, wouldn’t prove that Jesus is God. It would merely prove that Jesus existed, which no one legitimately disputes.
What is the fascination with thee physical proofs that Jesus existed. Don’t we already know this? Are we sure of it? Aren’t we sure of his devinity besides?
J
josie_L
Guest
Well then, you should visit the site dedicated to verifying the authenticy of the Shroud.
It’s www.shroud.com
M
mark_a
Guest
J
josie_L
Guest
Mark A it was brought to Odessa (not sure if it was for the purpose of healing a sick King) and from there it was brought to Constantinople by the Byzantine emperor of that time. It stayed there till Constantinople was sacked by Crusaders who found the shroud.
K
kalt
Guest
J
josie_L
Guest
It would reinforce your faith, as I think it was intended to do. And to give you/us a beautiful glimpse of our beloved Saviour.Been there.
What is it to you if I believe it is genuine or not?
P.S. Imagine all those skeptical people beholding the Shroud, who knows how many have or will be effected by its authenticity? I know it is real, the evidence is overwhelming.
K
kalt
Guest
If you truly believe in Jesus with all your heart, mind, and soul, how could a piece of cloth add anything?
No thing will reinforce my faith. If it turns out that it’s the real thing, good. If not, no damage done.
My faith doesn’t depend on the shroud’s being authentic. Since my faith doesn’t depend on it, or even get anything from it, it’s being authentic (or not) is irrelevant.
What will happen with you and your faith if it turns out to be someone else’s shroud or a fake shroud?
J
josie_L
Guest
So you would feel no awe at knowing it is real, honestly, it would be like witnessing a miracle and then remaining unmoved by what you had beheld. Our Church is filled with miracles and visions and saints who have enriched our faith, does this not reinforce your belief in Christianity and/or the Catholic faith? Do you not see these things as gifts of God bearing witness to the world that He is who He says He is? I do not insist that your faith should be dependent on the authenticity of the shroud, rather that if it should be verified as authentic, which I believe it is, it would give us a glimpse of God’s infinite grace and love. He who gave Thomas a chance to behold him has also given us a chance to lay eyes upon Him who we call Christ. Again, my faith is not dependent on it but I am awed but what I see and learn when researching the Shroud. Remember there were many skeptics when first Bernadette and then the Three Children of Fatima were visited by Mother Mary. You do believe in the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, correct?
S
Steven_John
Guest
God has blessed you with this cloth and showing you Jesus (pbwh) through it.
He blesses me with faith reinforcement when I see living humans doing selfless acts and share it is God who did such and does such praise be to Him.
God blesses us both so differently what an awesome diverse God present in both life and a cloth. Praise be to you our almighty Father.
S
Steven_John
Guest
Happy are they who believe without seeing.
J
josie_L
Guest
Yes, exactly for I believed in Jesus way before I knew anything about the Shroud. But when hearing/seeing such things, like the Shroud and the other miracles within Christianity how could it not reinforce your faith? A miracle in essence is God’s way of speaking to us. He did it from the beginning why would he not do it with us now?
K
kalt
Guest
No, I don’t believe in the appartitions. They may be true, but I have no reason to believe that they are.
Again, apparitions aren’t articles of faith.
No one is required to believe in them. When Mary appears to me, I will believe it, but you don’t have to.
How is the burial cloth a miracle? What is miraculous about it? They way it was formed, which no one can yet describe?
Don’t you think there’s a reason that the Church hasn’t authenticated it yet? Don’t you think they’re waiting for science to determine what exactly is going on?
K
kalt
Guest
You didn’t answer the question. What would happen with you if the shroud turned out to be someone elses or a fake?
S
Steven_John
Guest
I have not said in my previous post he cant produced miracles but as you quoted me and have asked me.
True or false the shroud is no miracle as we know it. If it is true it is of natural law.
So how will it effect my faith, none i believed before and will after I have no doubt so require no reaffirmation.
As for miracles, they defy natural law. Like my sister in our parish, terminal with cancer and after prayer and Gods healing she is in the choir and full of life. Wow all praise be to God. From all i know her situation defys natural law.
Men can not explain miracles.
Even this does not reaffirm my faith, I know God can do all things and healing is a part. We followed instruction her and i prayed to the Father and His will is being done.
It does increase my praise and happiness, What an awesome God praise be to Him.
Josie I hope you read my earlier post
I did not set out to openly challenge you but the questioning of your post leads me to feel i may have.
J
josie_L
Guest
Point 1:
I’m not stating that the apparitions are articles of faith only that such things can reinforce our faith. Look for example at when the apparitions happened, usually at a time of much turbulence, and why do you think that is? Could it have been so that the faithful could be reinforced or invigorated by the power of God’s witness through Mother Mary? How many people were saved and healed because of these apparitions. I am not trying to convince you of the authenticity of the Shroud only stating that God can and still does speak to us through miracles.
Point 2:
The fact that the image on the Shroud cannot be scientifically explained is very important especially since the Shroud is centuries years old. The technology could not have existed back then, to provide the image that we see now. It is like unto a burst of radiation but only on the surface of the cloth. That to me seems pretty miraculous, along with the other findings such as the pollens that were found on the cloth that have been confirmed as indigenous only toIsrael near the whereabouts of Jerusalem. Then there are the other findings (like the traces of human blood), one particular thing I noticed is the no# 3 visible on the image of the man’s forehead, the name of Jesus of Nazareth written on the cloth. Also, the tilma of Gaudelupe seems to have the same kind of superimposed image. It likewise is unexplainable. Many of have come to believe in the faith because of these artifacts and other miracles, God is gracious and merciful.
Point 3:
The Church has not made an official statement, yet Pope John Paul II kissed the Shroud proclaiming it a gift, presumably because he believed it was real. The Church does or cannot make an official statement as of yet, however she does not state that we cannot believe in the Shroud, unlike the apparitions in Medjugorge wherein we see the CC putting its foot down.
J
josie_L
Guest
I do not believe it to be fake, however, if it should happen that it is, it would not take away my faith in Jesus. My life has been blessed by God’s presence regardless of the Shroud.
S
Steven_John
Guest
Amen,
God bless you that’s an affirmation of real faith.
K
kalt
Guest
Then why are you so upset that someone else doubts its authenticity? You admit that you believe it is real, and that if it isn’t your faith is unchanged.
I say that it’s probably a fake, and that if it is real, my faith will remain unchanged.
So really, what difference does it make if it’s real or fake? If it doesn’t change faith, it doesn’t really matter.
You asked if I would be in awe if it were real and I saw it in person.
I was in awe when I saw Lincoln’s hat in person. And my state’s charter. And the prehistoric artifacts in museums. I was especially in awe when I was able to handle the replicas of Lucy and other pre-human fossils, including Neandertal bones.
Being able to see artifacts from the past irl vs on TV or in books, is an experience that you might not understand if you haven’t experienced it.
So, if the shroud were real, I would be in awe to see it in person. To know that Jesus touched it would be amazing. But it’s not necessary. I doubt I would take a trip just to see itm unless they put it in a traveling exhibit and it came fairly close to home.
M
mark_a
Guest
Great info. Thanks!
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