Knights of Columbus and the SSPX

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Okay, maybe I used the wrong language when I used the words “formed to support”. I don’t presume to speak for them as I obviously am not part of their council. However, I think Father Z is quite correct…

All I know is that promotion of the Traditional Latin Mass is very important to them. That I can say with no reservations.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Tim. 🙂

And of course if anyone is interested in such “traditional councils” and live in NYC, just google them. 🙂
Reminds me of the Sienfeld episode…

Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Whatch the eyes roll however, when it is suggested that we all go to Mass at Our Lady of the Ordinary Form Parish on the way to the Pro-life rally next Saturday. :rolleyes: Oh, that Mass… Well, I don’t… Umm… Not that there’s anything wrong with that! It’s valid after all. I just preferrrrrr the Extraordinary Form.

So now we have Traditonal KofC councils and Ordinary KofC councils. Oh brother. 🤷

-Tim-
 
Reminds me of the Sienfeld episode…

Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Whatch the eyes roll however, when it is suggested that we all go to Mass at Our Lady of the Ordinary Form Parish on the way to the Pro-life rally next Saturday. :rolleyes: Oh, that Mass… Well, I don’t… Umm… Not that there’s anything wrong with that! It’s valid after all. I just preferrrrrr the Extraordinary Form.

-Tim-
Ha ha. You know us traddies well.
 
There are two councils that I am aware of in NYC that were founded specifically to promote and support the Traditional Latin Mass (Regina Coeli and Agnus Dei).

Father Z touches on these traditional KOC councils a bit here.
Great link TL!👍 Thanks! I love Father Z’s blog!

God bless,

PAX

:highprayer:
 
I am a 3rd Degree Knight and I am in the SSPX. I found a traditional KofC chapter (there are actually two that I know of) that are centered around the E.F.

I asked the GK if it would be a problem being a “remote” member and being associated with the SSPX. He said “no problem”. I have been in this council for 6 years.

I have been disenchanted with the Knights for the last couple of years based on the fact that some prominent politicians, who are Knights, have publicly supported same sex marriage and the funding of Planned Parenthood. As an organization, the Knights have stated that they do not police these sorts of things with their members.

I considered that to be a VERY lame response and not fitting of the reputation of the organization. So I have been seriously reconsidering my membership of late.

Traditionals are leery of the similarities in the rituals of the Knights to Freemasonry but I don’t attend meetings and have not participated in any Knights function for close to 20 years.
That’s right, they don’t. 🙂 Making sure all their members are completely orthodox is not their responsibility–that is the role of priests/chaplains. For example, a member of my dh’s council held unorthodox views on an important doctrinal issue and was expressing them to his fellow Knights. The chaplain, who happened to be the senior pastor of the parish, told him he had to correct his stance, at least in what he said to others, or he would not be able to hold an office in the council. It worked. There’s nothing stopping the Knights from informally recommending a member be corrected by a priest/chaplain, but the Knights do not have that right nor that responsibility.
 
Reminds me of the Sienfeld episode…

Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Whatch the eyes roll however, when it is suggested that we all go to Mass at Our Lady of the Ordinary Form Parish on the way to the Pro-life rally next Saturday. :rolleyes: Oh, that Mass… Well, I don’t… Umm… Not that there’s anything wrong with that! It’s valid after all. I just preferrrrrr the Extraordinary Form.

So now we have Traditonal KofC councils and Ordinary KofC councils. Oh brother. 🤷
Tim, I don’t think it’s so much a matter of traditional KoC councils, but rather KoC councils formed at traditional parishes such that all of the people in the council are traditional Catholics and wish to promote and expand the use of the traditional mass and sacraments. The council itself is just a KoC council, but the members of council have things in common that influence the activities which the council chooses to undertake.

When such councils send representation to state councils I would guess that their representatives will probably choose to seek out a traditional mass in the area rather than go to the convention center mass arranged by the state council. Personally I don’t understand why anybody would have a problem with that.

Why aren’t you a knight, Tim? I recommend it, even if you won’t be able to regular attend meetings, there will still be opportunities for participation.
 
Tim, I don’t think it’s so much a matter of traditional KoC councils, but rather KoC councils formed at traditional parishes such that all of the people in the council are traditional Catholics and wish to promote and expand the use of the traditional mass and sacraments. The council itself is just a KoC council, but the members of council have things in common that influence the activities which the council chooses to undertake.

When such councils send representation to state councils I would guess that their representatives will probably choose to seek out a traditional mass in the area rather than go to the convention center mass arranged by the state council. Personally I don’t understand why anybody would have a problem with that.

Why aren’t you a knight, Tim? I recommend it, even if you won’t be able to regular attend meetings, there will still be opportunities for participation.
The councils I was referring to are at parishes that celebrate both forms.
 
The councils I was referring to are at parishes that celebrate both forms.
Does that mean there are two KoC councils at the parish? One for the OF parishioners and one for the EF parishioners?

I hope not. That would be a mistake, in my opinion.
 
Why aren’t you a knight, Tim? I recommend it, even if you won’t be able to regular attend meetings, there will still be opportunities for participation.
I will answer you directly, since you asked. I has to do with swearing oaths.

The Church is the Christ’s authority on earth with regard to matters on faith and morals. No other authority exists on earth with regard to faith and morals except the Holy Catholic Church. The Catholic Church therefor, is the only body which may administer oaths on behalf of God. This authority was famously granted to Peter directly by the words of Our Lord himself.

***I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." *(Matthew 16:19)

In this passage, Jesus rescinds the judicial and legislative authority granted by God to the priests of God’s old kingdom, and he transfers that authority to Peter who will lead Jesus’ new kingdom. Jesus removes authority to “Bind and loose” from “The chair of Moses” and transfers it to “The Chair of Peter.” See also Isaiah 22:15-23.

I understand that everyone says that oaths sworn by the Knights of Columbus are OK, that there is nothing bad in them, that many priests are Knights, and deacons. I even know a Cistercian monk who is a Knight. But the Knights of Columbus are not an official organization of the Church, and I can never be sure of what those oaths contain because they are secret.

I understand that the Church has approved the Knights at many levels, and that many good men are members, and I take nothing away from that. That only gives me confidence that the Knights are a solid organization.

My question is simply this; does the KofC administering oaths on matters of faith and morals on behalf of God? Another way to put it is, do the oaths which the Knights of Columbus ask their members to swear contain things which the KofC do not have authority to ask their members to swear, things which pertain to faith and morals which only the Church has authority to ask it’s members to swear on God’s behalf?

I cannot know until the moment I am asked to swear that very oath, and then I have about one microsecond to decide, and respond positively or negatively. That’s a rash oath.

Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘Do not take a false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Do not swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Our Lord warned against rash oaths in the sermon on the mount.

I know they are a good organization. I know they are good men. Everyone tells me that the oath is OK, but I have concerns, and those concerns have not been addressed. No one is able to answer my questions about whether the oaths pertain to matters of faith and morals, matters which only God’s church has athority to administer oaths on.

Discussions in private with Knights about my concerns have always been cordial, but in groups where other people are listening and here in public on CAF, such concerns are consistently met with a very defensive response, as if such concerns would somehow dissuade people from joining. That’s not really my intent. My concerns are genuine, but Knights don’t seem to like to disucss them in public, and so I don’t speak about them often.

It has nothing to do with individual Knights, or the organization, or what they do. It has to do with oaths and authority, and I want to be sure. I guess you could call me traditional in this regard.

-Tim-
 
You are more than welcome to participate in a First Degree ceremony and leave if you determine that the oath is not appropriate for you to take. Nobody will force you to complete it or cut off your toes once you find out its content. You are merely enjoined to keep the content of the ceremony to yourself.

Our ceremonials are secret mostly to preserve the element of surprise and impact that they have on new members. The proceedings of meetings are closed and confidential as they are business meetings intended for the internal working of the council/assembly. There are no dark, evil secrets here. As you say, many clergy members are part of the Knights. There is nothing in the oaths that will conflict with your faith or morals as a Catholic. The Knights are not a secret society like Freemasonry. Membership is open and the many works of the Order are public knowledge.
 
You are more than welcome to participate in a First Degree ceremony and leave if you determine that the oath is not appropriate for you to take. Nobody will force you to complete it or cut off your toes once you find out its content. You are merely enjoined to keep the content of the ceremony to yourself.
I might add that, properly speaking, there isn’t any oath at all, but rather a pledge or solemn promise. And I personally guarantee (not that you know me personally) that the pledge asked of candidates for the first degree has in it nothing that pertains to faith and morals**.

Lastly, given that many good bishops themselves are knights, such as for example, the Supreme Chaplain Archbishop Lori of Baltimore, it’s hard for me to understand the suspicion that such bishops would ask us to do (or even silently accept that we do) anything contrary to the teaching of the Church. If, in participating in the ceremonials of the Knights of Columbus, we were in any way acting in opposition to the teaching of the Church, I cannot imagine that ALL of the bishops of the USA would remain silent in complicity.

** That is not to imply that any of the later degrees do require a pledge pertaining to faith and morals, but entry into the knights, which is the topic at hand, is entry into the first degree,
 
I might add that, properly speaking, there isn’t any oath at all, but rather a pledge or solemn promise. And I personally guarantee (not that you know me personally) that the pledge asked of candidates for the first degree has in it nothing that pertains to faith and morals**.

Lastly, given that many good bishops themselves are knights, such as for example, the Supreme Chaplain Archbishop Lori of Baltimore, it’s hard for me to understand the suspicion that such bishops would ask us to do (or even silently accept that we do) anything contrary to the teaching of the Church. If, in participating in the ceremonials of the Knights of Columbus, we were in any way acting in opposition to the teaching of the Church, I cannot imagine that ALL of the bishops of the USA would remain silent in complicity.

** That is not to imply that any of the later degrees do require a pledge pertaining to faith and morals, but entry into the knights, which is the topic at hand, is entry into the first degree,
There’s also a pretty specific caveat in there that says that you recognize that the Knights cannot ask you to do or to promise anything that would conflict with your religious beliefs (the authority of the Church) or civil authority (the law of the land). Not sure if that helps, but there it is. 🤷
 
I must admit, when I first joined the Knights over 20 years ago I was very nervous about the secrecy…I had heard whispers, and secret society innuendo.

I can honestly say that I was blown away by the job done by our degree team…by the end of the ceremony there was part of me that wanted to share every word…it made me extremely proud to be a part of these wonderful Catholic men … and it has been humbling ever since though, trying to live up to some of the examples

go through the first degree, if you want to “unjoin” or leave…I do not believe there would ever be an issue, the only request as stated before is you would be asked to not share the ceremony details
 
I have been disenchanted with the Knights for the last couple of years based on the fact that some prominent politicians, who are Knights, have publicly supported same sex marriage and the funding of Planned Parenthood. As an organization, the Knights have stated that they do not police these sorts of things with their members.

I considered that to be a VERY lame response and not fitting of the reputation of the organization. So I have been seriously reconsidering my membership of late.
Sorry to hear your disenchantment with the KofC, which traditionally defers to the ecclesial authority of bishops in deciding who is and who isn’t a practical Catholic. Scandalous politicians may not be allowed to hold office in the organization, but the KofC won’t bar any man who is allowed by the Church to receive Communion.
 
I was not aware that Canon 915 (second half) had a bearing on membership. It was my impression that the KofC allowed self-identification of “practical Catholics” and could not revoke membership based on, e.g., heresy or support of abortion. I think a public excommunication is required. Our Financial Secretary brought us a case of a laicized priest who was excommunicated and the request was made to remove him from our rolls. But I don’t think it is sufficient that someone obstinately persists in grave sin.
 
I was not aware that Canon 915 (second half) had a bearing on membership. It was my impression that the KofC allowed self-identification of “practical Catholics” and could not revoke membership based on, e.g., heresy or support of abortion. I think a public excommunication is required. Our Financial Secretary brought us a case of a laicized priest who was excommunicated and the request was made to remove him from our rolls. But I don’t think it is sufficient that someone obstinately persists in grave sin.
Obstinately persisting in grave sin should be more than sufficient grounds to reject a candidate in the first place. Getting them out once they’re in is harder, although in my opinion it shouldn’t be so hard as it is.
 
Obstinately persisting in grave sin should be more than sufficient grounds to reject a candidate in the first place. Getting them out once they’re in is harder, although in my opinion it shouldn’t be so hard as it is.
Again, it’s not the responsibility of the Knights to judge the state of the souls of its members. They do not disenroll dues-paying men who are otherwise allowed Holy Communion by the bishops, while if they are involved in scandal they may not ever get elected to positions of trust and authority. You won’t ever see John Kerry being elected as a council’s Outside Guard.
 
IF you are worried about the Knights oaths, then ask a priest or clergyman who is a member. They will tell that there is nothing immoral or unauthorized in the oaths.

The KC is not a secret organizaition we are sworn only to NOT reveal anything about the ceremonials itself… All that we do is public and open to scrutiny.
 
IF you are worried about the Knights oaths, then ask a priest or clergyman who is a member. They will tell that there is nothing immoral or unauthorized in the oaths.

The KC is not a secret organizaition we are sworn only to NOT reveal anything about the ceremonials itself… All that we do is public and open to scrutiny.
The pledege is NOT an “OATH”, it is a fraternal “PROMISE.” There IS a difference. While I can’t reveal the ceremony, NOWHERE will you find the word “swear”, the term “swear to God,” “solomnly swear,” or anything of the like. Rather, you “promise on your honor as a Catholic gentleman.” That is a very, very, intentional choice of words.
 
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