Knights of Columbus Secrecy

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Ophelia23 said:
Truthfully, I regret posting my question. After reading the responses, I am finding some of the judgment being cast on me and my marriage to be hurtful. I’m afraid I did not articulate what I was feeling very well. My feelings, as they were, were irrational and I knew that; I was struggling with–and admitting to–the irrationality of my own thoughts while looking for support from other wives who may have had the same feelings. I was in no way trying to cast judgment on the KofC, and I am in no way angry with my husband or prying my husband to tell me what happened.
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In your original post you asked for advice on how to deal with your feelings. Since you may have missed it, being the third paragraph of my post, I’ll just restate my response to that request:

When you have those feelings praise your husbands integrity and/or thank God for an honorable husband that keeps his promises.
 
Really, there’s no need for anyone to get all up in the OP’s face over this. All that is kept secret is the initiation ceremonies–that’s it. Nothing else is secret. Priests and bishops have sat through them as they were accepted into the Knights (they don’t have to do more than that because they are already ordained). It’s nothing for anyone to get all worked up over. Truly.
 
Della said:
Priests and bishops have sat through them as they were accepted into the Knights
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So, this means that Catholic priests and bishops are well aware of the ongoing practice of secret initiation ceremonies into the KofC. If the priests and bishops, who are our shepherds, are cool with this practice, that means the practice is not sinful and it’s acceptable from a Catholic standpoint.
 
This has probably been talked to death but I just want to clarify that I haven’t seen anyone question the integrity of the knights or even question if the secret ceremony was moral so priests being members isn’t the issue. The issue was should this organization tell men to keep a secret from their wives. Obviously a husband’s wife comes way before any fraternal organization and I think everyone agrees with that. It just seems to be an overreach for the organization. What spouses discuss is between them. So when the Op heard that her husband took an “oath”(as she called it or may of heard it described as) to keep a secret from her I understand why it would raise an eyebrow.
 
LucyLight said:
This has probably been talked to death but I just want to clarify that I haven’t seen anyone question the integrity of the knights or even question if the secret ceremony was moral so priests being members isn’t the issue. The issue was should this organization tell men to keep a secret from their wives. Obviously a husband’s wife comes way before any fraternal organization and I think everyone agrees with that. It just seems to be an overreach for the organization. What spouses discuss is between them. So when the Op heard that her husband took an “oath”(as she called it or may of heard it described as) to keep a secret from her I understand why it would raise an eyebrow.
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She did call it an oath, but it was probably a mistake. We Knights don’t take an oath, we just promise not to share what goes on in the ceremony.

It’s no different than when your friend says “promise you won’t tell anyone this…” and you say “yes”, and then they tell you the secret. You are free to break that secret and tell your spouse, but is it the right thing to do? I suppose anyone could rationalize that “the person should know I would tell my spouse”, but in the end, just like the promise the Knights make, nobody is going to come after you, the only fallout is whether this is something you would be proud of.
 
LucyLight said:
I’m not saying that people should tell their spouse everything but KofC probably shouldn’t have their members keeping secrets from their wives.
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What I hear in your arguments is “I feel” it is wrong.

As a Knight I am saying that I belong to an organization that is in full communion with the Holy See. It is sanctioned and approved of by the Pope and by my archbishop.

They are authoritative AND accountable for making sure that I am a moral person. They are also responsible for teaching us how God intends us to live in marriage.

Are you holding the position that God’s representatives on Earth, His servants that are responsible for making sure that we know how to live out a sacramental marriage have endorsed and support an organization with a practice that is contrary to God’s institution of marriage?
 
I believe that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to hold secrets from one’s spouse. There may be exceptions when revealing that secret will damage or end the marriage. Taking a voluntary oath or vow that a person can never reveal to their spouse without the spouse’s permission is obviously disrespectful to the spouse, and am actually shocked that more people don’t see it that way.

Want to join the KOC? Fine. Just make sure that you tell your wife that it involves certain secrets that you can’t reveal. If the wife says OK, go for it. If not, don’t. Sacramental vows beat optional ones any day of the week.
 
ValPal said:
I believe that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to hold secrets from one’s spouse. There may be exceptions when revealing that secret will damage or end the marriage.
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Seriously? If I understand you’re rules on secrets in marriage:

If you’re cheating on your wife, you should keep that secret because it would damage the relationship.

But, the details of a ceremony that are meaningless to the marital relationship, that you shouldn’t keep secret?
 
ValPal said:
I believe that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to hold secrets from one’s spouse. There may be exceptions when revealing that secret will damage or end the marriage. Taking a voluntary oath or vow that a person can never reveal to their spouse without the spouse’s permission is obviously disrespectful to the spouse, and am actually shocked that more people don’t see it that way.

Want to join the KOC? Fine. Just make sure that you tell your wife that it involves certain secrets that you can’t reveal. If the wife says OK, go for it. If not, don’t. Sacramental vows beat optional ones any day of the week.
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There. Is. No. Oath.

Or vow.

:banghead:
 
There is nothing that occurs at the K of C ceremonies that the spouse “needs” to know, or that the spouse will benefit from from knowing, or that will hurt them if they do not know.

My wife’s life would not change one jot or one iota if she knew what happened, nor will it change if she does not know.

Maybe spouses need to trust one another.

After all, should my wife be free to ask me what I confessed in confession? Do I have to tell her what penance I got? Can I demand that she tell me? No.

Now I know that joining the K of C is not a sacrament but it is a Catholic Society, and NOTHING happens there that I would ever have to confess.

Now if the Knights asked us to go against our marriage vows, or Church teaching then I would say that wives SHOULD know. But trust us, we aren’t asked to do anything like that.
 
TryingToLearn said:
What I hear in your arguments is “I feel” it is wrong.

Yes I feel it is wrong! I don’t pretend to have all the answers. If we were talking about issues like abortion or something more serious I wouldn’t say “I feel abortion is wrong” I would say it is and why.

As a Knight I am saying that I belong to an organization that is in full communion with the Holy See. It is sanctioned and approved of by the Pope and by my archbishop.

They are authoritative AND accountable for making sure that I am a moral person. They are also responsible for teaching us how God intends us to live in marriage.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say the knights are authoritative. That’s great that the knights are helping men in the faith and marriage. I will add that your spouse is more accountable for making sure that you are a moral person than the knights are.

Are you holding the position that God’s representatives on Earth, His servants that are responsible for making sure that we know how to live out a sacramental marriage have endorsed and support an organization with a practice that is contrary to God’s institution of marriage?
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Ummm…so because I don’t like that the KofC ask their member’s to keep a secret from their spouse I am now undermining the authority of the Church? I have a lot of respect for the knights but the organization can’t be perfect is it really that radical of an idea that they could use some updating in this regard?
 
Havard said:
She did call it an oath, but it was probably a mistake. We Knights don’t take an oath, we just promise not to share what goes on in the ceremony.

**Got it 👍 thats why I put “oath” in quotations and added(as she called it or may of heard it described as) **

It’s no different than when your friend says “promise you won’t tell anyone this…” and you say “yes”, and then they tell you the secret. You are free to break that secret and tell your spouse, but is it the right thing to do? I suppose anyone could rationalize that “the person should know I would tell my spouse”, but in the end, just like the promise the Knights make, nobody is going to come after you, the only fallout is whether this is something you would be proud of.
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LucyLight said:
I have a lot of respect for the knights but the organization can’t be perfect is it really that radical of an idea that they could use some updating in this regard?
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Just my 2 cents 🙂 of course - but I think the KofC are totally fine the way they are. Single men only need to discuss with their prospective spouses, “Look, Honey, I am a member of KofC, and certain things I am not allowed to reveal to anyone, not even to my spouse. Are you okay with that? Do you still want to marry me, knowing that I am a member of KofC and I plan on staying a member even after our marriage?”

I think it’s that simple, as far as single people are concerned. Just let her know, so that she can choose not to go forward with the marriage if your involvement with the KofC is such a big problem for her.

Now, when a married man wants to become a member of KofC, that’s a different ballgame. But I’m not going to address that scenario, as I am a single guy and I will rather let someone else speak for married people. 🙂
 
L_piperatus said:
I think it’s that simple, as far as single people are concerned. Just let her know, so that she can choose not to go forward with the marriage if your involvement with the KofC is such a big problem for her.
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What? How about you quit the KOC if it is a problem for her. Membership in the organization (or keeping ceremonies secret) can not be as important as a marriage.

I realize that the KOC does not require a “vow” or an “oath” of secrecy, otherwise they would be violating church teaching against swearing oaths over trivial matters. However, I have seen several Knights post that they have taken a oath or vow of secrecy. This brings scandal to the church and leads people to believe that the KOC is a secret society… which are prohibited by the church. Perhaps it is time for the KOC to drop the secret ceremonies or at least educate their members that they are not taking an oath or vow in order to avoid scandal.
 
If, however the KOC require a binding oath of secrecy before God, I would have to think that indeed might be a problem since it involves taking a sacred oath over a trivial matter.

So which is it?
No oath is sworn, simply a promice.
An oath is sworn over a seemingly trivial matter.
 
The_Rock said:
What? How about you quit the KOC if it is a problem for her. Membership in the organization (or keeping ceremonies secret) can not be as important as a marriage.
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Please don’t forget that I’m not talking about married people - I’m talking about single people trying to discern whether to marry each other or not.

Actually I’m not a member of KofC, but if I was, and if my membership in this faithful Catholic organization was such a problem for someone, I would prefer not to marry her. Besides, I spent my whole adult life working jobs that required me to keep all sorts of “secrets” - patients’ info, students’ info, inventions and confidential scientific data. There’s a lot I’m not allowed to share with my future wife. If a woman can’t deal with my professional obligation not to disclose confidential information, or if she (hypothetically) couldn’t deal with my obligation, if I was a KofC member, to keep KofC’s confidential information from being disclosed to non-KofC members, I would not want to marry that woman because we could not have a peaceful life together.
 
LucyLight said:
This has probably been talked to death but I just want to clarify that I haven’t seen anyone question the integrity of the knights or even question if the secret ceremony was moral so priests being members isn’t the issue. The issue was should this organization tell men to keep a secret from their wives. Obviously a husband’s wife comes way before any fraternal organization and I think everyone agrees with that. It just seems to be an overreach for the organization. What spouses discuss is between them. So when the Op heard that her husband took an “oath”(as she called it or may of heard it described as) to keep a secret from her I understand why it would raise an eyebrow.
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If this is a problem for her, perhaps the discussion between her and her husband should be not whether he tells her anything, but whether he continues in this organization. If he decides not to, he will not be the first, as he can join people such as myself, and Michael Voris.
 
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