Knights of Columbus Secrecy

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Most fratneral orginzations are like this and phrobit disclosing to non members anything that takes place during regular business meetings.

Edit: I’m a member of the Elks and t’s the same way. Even if I could, I don’t know how to describe the initition process, but like the Knights, there is nothing that one would find to be objectionable.
Just to let you know, there is a very long (like 1/2 hour long if read outloud) “exorcism” prayer (not technically, but the idea is the same) for people that want to be rid of the curses that are promised in joining/or being connected to the masons. The elks organization is included in that prayer.
 
But, the details of a ceremony that are meaningless to the marital relationship, that you shouldn’t keep secret?
Who decides what is and is not meaningless in a marital relationship? One spouse, and one spouse alone, without consultation from the other spouse?

Anyone that is married knows that it a recipe for disaster. The communication lines must be kept open at all times. Simply discuss the matter with one’s wife. If the wife doesn’t object, no problem. If the wife objects, don’t join, because one’s spouse is far more important than optionally joining a fraternal organization.

It’s simply common sense, as well as respect for one’s spouse.
 
If, however the KOC require a binding oath of secrecy before God, I would have to think that indeed might be a problem since it involves taking a sacred oath over a trivial matter.

So which is it?
No oath is sworn, simply a promice.
An oath is sworn over a seemingly trivial matter.
There is no oath. There is no vow.

The Knights do not do anything that conflicts with either the letter of Bible or Church teaching nor even the spirit of them.
 
There is nothing that occurs at the K of C ceremonies that the spouse “needs” to know, or that the spouse will benefit from from knowing, or that will hurt them if they do not know.
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Agreed.

Your wife does not need to know about the sheep, or the alcohol, or whips and chains…

In fact I wish I didn’t know about them…😦
 
There is no oath. There is no vow.

The Knights do not do anything that conflicts with either the letter of Bible or Church teaching nor even the spirit of them.
That’s about the fourth or fifth time this has been stated.:rolleyes:

I think we’re confusing what a secret is:

In the last few decades with pop psychology we’ve got this thing about honesty, and “outing” secrets and lies.

However the honesty that pop psychology talks about is a rather false honesty which sounds more like self justification. Sometimes being honest is not being moral. For instance: If I think that you’re really ugly and stupid, would it be a good thing for me to tell you that?

Also, the secrets that we’ve been warned to avoid in the last few decades and which SHOULD be reported are things like abuse or addiction etc.

Not telling what happens in a K of C ceremony is not being dishonest, and the promise of secrecy is not the covering up of something that needs to be brought to light.
 
I would not feel comfortable participating in something that I could not tell my husband about (even if it were just a silly ceremony with no objectionable content), and he feels the same. Secret ceremonies are weird to us. That’s why he is not interested in being a Knight of Columbus 🤷
 
I would not feel comfortable participating in something that I could not tell my husband about (even if it were just a silly ceremony with no objectionable content), and he feels the same. Secret ceremonies are weird to us. That’s why he is not interested in being a Knight of Columbus 🤷
We Catholics don’t go by what feels good or bad to us, but by what the Church approves. I’m not saying your dh has to become a KofC, but I think he’s missing out on a great opportunity to serve and grow in his faith all over the idea that a husband and wife have to share everything. 🙂 It’s simply not true nor necessary that they do. I have no problem with it because I know what type of thing they are keeping secret for their members alone and know that it is fully approved by the Holy Father, so it’s simply not an issue.
 
That’s fine.👍

And I’m saying this without any hint of judging others’ marriages: My wife chooses to trust me on this point, and is fine with my involvement in the K of C.

Both are values: openness, and trust.

And in truth someone who joins the K of C is not against openness. On the other hand someone who chooses not to join because of the promise of secrecy is not against trust.
 
We Catholics don’t go by what feels good or bad to us, but by what the Church approves.
It’s important to recognize what the Church is approving. I’ve never seen anything that says the Church approves of a husband joining the KofC over the stern objection of one’s wife.
I have no problem with it because I know what type of thing they are keeping secret for their members alone and know that it is fully approved by the Holy Father, so it’s simply not an issue.
If you approve, then there is absolutely no problem with anything. You and your husband agree on the issue, and that is exactly my point.

I personally wouldn’t have an issue with “secrecy,” provided it was discussed beforehand. I would have a problem if it occurred after the fact.
 
I would not feel comfortable participating in something that I could not tell my husband about (even if it were just a silly ceremony with no objectionable content), and he feels the same. Secret ceremonies are weird to us. That’s why he is not interested in being a Knight of Columbus 🤷
I agree with you.🙂
 
It’s important to recognize what the Church is approving. I’ve never seen anything that says the Church approves of a husband joining the KofC over the stern objection of one’s wife.

If you approve, then there is absolutely no problem with anything. You and your husband agree on the issue, and that is exactly my point.

I personally wouldn’t have an issue with “secrecy,” provided it was discussed beforehand. I would have a problem if it occurred after the fact.
By that rationale, wouldn’t it be justified for no woman to ever marry me simply because my being a lawyer requires that I keep privileged information a secret?
 
By that rationale, wouldn’t it be justified for no woman to ever marry me simply because my being a lawyer requires that I keep privileged information a secret?
Your wife would have spousal privilege. And while it might be inappropriate for you to share someone else’s private information with your wife, your bar admittance is open to the public and you will never be asked to participate in secret ceremonies as part of your job.

But, if a woman couldn’t live with the fact that you’re an attorney, then yes - she’d be completely justified in not marrying you.

Anyway, I’m not saying Knights are bad or that no one should participate. But, for our marriage dynamic, it would be beyond bizarre to think that my husband had taken part in a secret ceremony and “couldn’t” tell me, even if he wanted to. Our first allegiance is to God, then to one another. Clubs and organizations are much further down the list : )
 
Your wife would have spousal privilege. And while it might be inappropriate for you to share someone else’s private information with your wife, your bar admittance is open to the public and you will never be asked to participate in secret ceremonies as part of your job.

But, if a woman couldn’t live with the fact that you’re an attorney, then yes - she’d be completely justified in not marrying you.

Anyway, I’m not saying Knights are bad or that no one should participate. But, for our marriage dynamic, it would be beyond bizarre to think that my husband had taken part in a secret ceremony and “couldn’t” tell me, even if he wanted to. Our first allegiance is to God, then to one another. Clubs and organizations are much further down the list : )
But, the whole point is this–the what is being kept secret is so insignificant it shouldn’t keep any man interested in the Knights from joining. No wife should have a problem with this–it’s so inconsequential.

In TEC/Crusillo, for instance, 4th Dayers are not to divulge what they experienced to those who haven’t gone through. Why? Because it would spoil it for them. It’s the same with the KC inititation ceremonies. If this is such an issue for a couple I think they have deeper things to deal with than something like this. I really can’t see why any Catholic wife would have a problem with this. Frankly, I could care less what they do in their ceremonies. Why would I want to know? To satisfy my curiosity? That’s not a good enough reason, IMHO. 🤷
 
Originally Posted by tafan
Exactly. Why do people think spouses have to share everything with each other? Are there married couples that actually live this way?
Apparently its sin that I don’t tell my wife that I think her best friend is hot…
 
By that rationale, wouldn’t it be justified for no woman to ever marry me simply because my being a lawyer requires that I keep privileged information a secret?
Being single I find this thread instructive - I think we single folks (both single men and single women) should really watch out not to marry some control freak who will ruin our ability to work and serve others in our chosen professions/vocations/ministries. Whether you serve as a lawyer, as a life scientist, as a marriage counselor, or as a Knight of Columbus, in the end it’s more than just a means of earning a paycheck (and KofC members do not earn a paycheck for their service), because you are serving people, and secrecy when required, is simply a tool that helps you perform your profession/vocation/ministry in a safer, more effective, more adequate manner.

I’m not a lawyer but I’m in a somewhat similar situation to you. I’m an inventor and I have been working closely with patent attorneys for many years, on several patent applications. I have a duty not to share confidential information with outside people (not even with family members), and my patent attorney has a similar duty. So far, with my family, this has never been a problem. My family members know that I work on new experimental drugs that will help a lot of sick people with cancer and other diseases, and that’s enough to them. They are happy for me, and not privy to detailed information that’s confidential.

So, would I ever want to marry some psychologically unbalanced control freak who feels threatened by my “secrets” and wants to know exact chemical structures that have not been disclosed yet, exact animal models and experimental details with tumor inhibition data and so on - or else quit my job, since my contractual obligations forbid me from disclosing this info? Not a chance in hell. Thank you, I’m quite happy the way I am, working jobs that require me to keep confidential information, and I’m not going to ruin my life marrying some control freak who can’t deal with it.

To reverse the situation, I would have no problem marrying a woman who has a similar duty to keep confidential information in her line of work. If I marry, let’s say, another life scientist, it’s enough to me to know that she is working on “good drugs”, i.e. ethical drugs, rather than some “bad drugs” like the next abortive pill or whatever. I don’t need detailed information.

And now I understand that the KofC is a similar situation, only more secure morally than a typical secular job, because the full moral authority of the Catholic Church stands behind KofC’s practices, including the initiation ceremony which is kept secret and which the Catholic Church is OK with. So, why the heck would be an outsider privy to the exact details of a KofC initiation ceremony, after they have been told already that Catholic bishops and priests have been part of the same ceremony, and that the Catholic Church is fully aware and approving of the whole thing?
 
But, the whole point is this–the what is being kept secret is so insignificant it shouldn’t keep any man interested in the Knights from joining. No wife should have a problem with this–it’s so inconsequential.

In TEC/Crusillo, for instance, 4th Dayers are not to divulge what they experienced to those who haven’t gone through. Why? Because it would spoil it for them. It’s the same with the KC inititation ceremonies. If this is such an issue for a couple I think they have deeper things to deal with than something like this. I really can’t see why any Catholic wife would have a problem with this. Frankly, I could care less what they do in their ceremonies. Why would I want to know? To satisfy my curiosity? That’s not a good enough reason, IMHO. 🤷
If it’s so terribly inconsequential and insignificant - then why the secrecy? If it’s all about not spoiling the “surprise” for new recruits, then why can’t wives know? Wives will never join KoC. Can they not be trusted not to tell other men all about the ceremonies? I don’t get it.

This reminds me of the super-secret Mormon sealing ceremonies.
 
Being single I find this thread instructive - I think we single folks (both single men and single women) should really watch out not to marry some control freak who will ruin our ability to work and serve others in our chosen professions/vocations/ministries. Whether you serve as a lawyer, as a life scientist, as a marriage counselor, or as a Knight of Columbus, in the end it’s more than just a means of earning a paycheck (and KofC members do not earn a paycheck for their service), because you are serving people, and secrecy when required, is simply a tool that helps you perform your profession/vocation/ministry in a safer, more effective, more adequate manner.

I’m not a lawyer but I’m in a somewhat similar situation to you. I’m an inventor and I have been working closely with patent attorneys for many years, on several patent applications. I have a duty not to share confidential information with outside people (not even with family members), and my patent attorney has a similar duty. So far, with my family, this has never been a problem. My family members know that I work on new experimental drugs that will help a lot of sick people with cancer and other diseases, and that’s enough to them. They are happy for me, and not privy to detailed information that’s confidential.

So, would I ever want to marry some psychologically unbalanced control freak who feels threatened by my “secrets” and wants to know exact chemical structures that have not been disclosed yet, exact animal models and experimental details with tumor inhibition data and so on - or else quit my job, since my contractual obligations forbid me from disclosing this info? Not a chance in hell. Thank you, I’m quite happy the way I am, working jobs that require me to keep confidential information, and I’m not going to ruin my life marrying some control freak who can’t deal with it.

To reverse the situation, I would have no problem marrying a woman who has a similar duty to keep confidential information in her line of work. If I marry, let’s say, another life scientist, it’s enough to me to know that she is working on “good drugs”, i.e. ethical drugs, rather than some “bad drugs” like the next abortive pill or whatever. I don’t need detailed information.

And now I understand that the KofC is a similar situation, only more secure morally than a typical secular job, because the full moral authority of the Catholic Church stands behind KofC’s practices, including the initiation ceremony which is kept secret and which the Catholic Church is OK with. So, why the heck would be an outsider privy to the exact details of a KofC initiation ceremony, after they have been told already that Catholic bishops and priests have been part of the same ceremony, and that the Catholic Church is fully aware and approving of the whole thing?
Would you really not be curious as to what your wife did at work all day, and would you honestly be satisfied with a vague answer? I think you misunderstand how communication in a marriage works.

In any event, almost all confidentiality rules fly out the door when it comes to spouses. My husband is an attorney and he can tell me whatever he wants - I could not ever be forced to testify as to what he’s shared. It’s called spousal privilege. That’s not to say I grill my husband about every client - or that he divulges information down to social security numbers and birth dates - I certainly do not know the details of the vast majority of his cases. But I do know he’s not participating in any clandestine ceremonies down at the courthouse or the office. And I know that if I asked, he’d tell me whatever I wanted to know.

It’s not that I believe KoC is doing anything evil, or that men who choose to be a part of it are doing something wrong. It just would be too weird for our family. My husband is absolutely not interested in a club with secret rituals.
 
Would you really not be curious as to what your wife did at work all day, and would you honestly be satisfied with a vague answer? I think you misunderstand how communication in a marriage works.

In any event, almost all confidentiality rules fly out the door when it comes to spouses. My husband is an attorney and he can tell me whatever he wants - I could not ever be forced to testify as to what he’s shared. It’s called spousal privilege. That’s not to say I grill my husband about every client - or that he divulges information down to social security numbers and birth dates - I certainly do not know the details of the vast majority of his cases. But I do know he’s not participating in any clandestine ceremonies down at the courthouse or the office. And I know that if I asked, he’d tell me whatever I wanted to know.

It’s not that I believe KoC is doing anything evil, or that men who choose to be a part of it are doing something wrong. It just would be too weird for our family. My husband is absolutely not interested in a club with secret rituals.
I understand your point of view, but I don’t believe that the spousal privilege would absolve me of my duty, even if it offers me a legal safeguard.

Maybe I’m wrong in that. I do very much respect the sacrament and bonds of marriage. But on the other hand, I’m not saying to my clients “by the way, whatever you tell me, my wife may end up hearing,” and it would be awkward if not inappropriate in most cases for me to do so. And since I don’t, I don’t see how it’s right for me to assume they would be okay with that.

Does that makes sense?
 
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