Knights of Columbus

[teachccd]

I don’t recall saying anything about either respecting or for that matter dis-respecting your wife. If that’s what you got out of my post, then perhaps a quick re-reading of it might help. I was simply attempting to offer a different point of view, but I should have remembered that is impossible if the person refuses to look at the other side, even if for a moment. You asked the question, I was simply offering a different suggestion as to why the ceremonials are kept secret. Sorry that I wasted our time. Good day…

I’m really sorry that you feel that way… Good night

 

[teachccd]

So I have to throw this out there…does your wife really CARE about what happens at the ceremony?

I know I didn’t! My late DH was a 4th degree, so he went to quite a lot of ceremonies in his day - some in jeans and sweaters, some in khaki pants, and some in tuxedos. He enjoyed it, he was with fellow Catholics, and he felt good about doing it.

Meanwhile, I honestly did not care what exactly went on! I did not need to know, I never asked, and he never told. We were both quite content! To this day, I honestly don’t care what happened during the ceremonies. All I know is it is an amazing group of men doing great Catholic charity work.

Don’t get hung up in the details. See the big picture.

that’s great that you didn’t care!! Many husband and wives have different things that they keep from each other. But that is not our case. My wife and I share everything and I don’t need some organization telling me that I CANNOT tell my wife something that we do. Whether or not she cares is besides the point. My point here is that I have to question an organization that has secret oaths that cannot be shared with a soul mate. That is my point that most here fail to address. But that’s ok. I know what I have to do… teachccd

 

[Catholic90]

Whether or not she cares is besides the point.

I can see it now…you wife says, as you tell her something, “Yes, dear, very interesting dear, really? dear. Oh my, dear!”

And then at coffee with her friends she says, “You won’t believe the things he tells me! I really don’t care! But he feels the need to TELL me everything!”

 

[teachccd]

I can see it now…you wife says, as you tell her something, “Yes, dear, very interesting dear, really? dear. Oh my, dear!”

And then at coffee with her friends she says, “You won’t believe the things he tells me! I really don’t care! But he feels the need to TELL me everything!”

This is immaturity at its finest…Please don’t embarass yourself just because you have no idea what I’m talking about. You either can’t read or you missed the ENTIRE message of the thread. Either way I forgive you… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I can see it now…you wife says, as you tell her something, “Yes, dear, very interesting dear, really? dear. Oh my, dear!”

And then at coffee with her friends she says, “You won’t believe the things he tells me! I really don’t care! But he feels the need to TELL me everything!”

Also maybe you are not used to this but my wife doesn’t make fun of me to her friends and neither do I make fun of her to mine.That is the whole premise of this thread. Maybe that’s contrary to your experiences in which case I’m sorry…

Oh and if you could read you wouldn’t take one statement out of my post completely out of context… but again I forgive you…

 

[Catholic90]

This is immaturity at its finest…Please don’t embarass yourself just because you have no idea what I’m talking about. You either can’t read or you missed the ENTIRE message of the thread. Either way I forgive you… teachccd

No, I did not read the entire message - 5 pages of this?!? Yeah.

Just because you feel the NEED to tell her EVERYTHING honestly does not mean she really wants to HEAR everything! She is probably a very dear, sweet woman who is very nice to you and does not want to hurt your feelings, but quite honestly, if you tell her EVERYTHING, she is probably does not care about some of it, but she is too nice to tell you that. So she just listens and says ‘interesting, dear’! Just being honest.

Women talk to other women, and I have several friends whose husbands tell them EVERYTHING. Then they vent to other women how their husbands tell them EVERYTHING.

 

[Elizium23]

Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet. There are purported “oaths of the Knights of Columbus” that are utterly false, utterly fabricated, and would be laughable if they weren’t so pathetic. Anti-Catholic sites are quick to point to these so-called “secret oaths” as “proof” that the Knights are demonic and heretical and whatever else they think about Catholics.

As a matter of fact, wives have a special place with the Order. Wives are invited to attend parts of the Fourth Degree exemplification, for instance a luncheon for the ladies only and a banquet for all. Wives of Knights frequently attend and help out with our service projects. Widows of Knights will usually be given a lifetime membership card that will provide them free entrance to all dinners and other Knights-sponsored events. The Order, and particularly our insurance organization, was founded specifically to provide for widows and children of deceased members. We still maintain that charism to this day. Please don’t feel slighted by this organization because it is fraternal. The family is the “domestic Church” and it is the most important unit of the parish community. This is what the Church teaches, and this is what a good Knight will understand.

 

[Catholic90]

Also maybe you are not used to this but my wife doesn’t make fun of me to her friends and neither do I make fun of her to mine.That is the whole premise of this thread. Maybe that’s contrary to your experiences in which case I’m sorry…

Oh and if you could read you wouldn’t take one statement out of my post completely out of context… but again I forgive you…

“if I could read” … nice guy you are too. You teach? Huh. Nice.

I can read just fine. I see you are an angry person who is lashing out. Sorry you feel the need to lash at the knights and at me when I think your relationship is just a little to sugary sweet. Usually things are not as they appear.

Thought you were going to bed an hour ago?

Tell your wife I feel for her and I understand her frustration sometimes!

I AM going to bed, since it is nearly midnight and I have to get up and really teach in 6 hours.

 

[teachccd]

No, I did not read the entire message - 5 pages of this?!? Yeah.

Just because you feel the NEED to tell her EVERYTHING honestly does not mean she really wants to HEAR everything! She is probably a very dear, sweet woman who is very nice to you and does not want to hurt your feelings, but quite honestly, if you tell her EVERYTHING, she is probably does not care about some of it, but she is too nice to tell you that. So she just listens and says ‘interesting, dear’! Just being honest.

Women talk to other women, and I have several friends whose husbands tell them EVERYTHING. Then they vent to other women how their husbands tell them EVERYTHING.

You do not know me. You do not know my wife. And mostly you do not know what you are talking about simply because you did not read through this thread. You don’t feel the need to read it because you just want to chime in with some ridiculous comment that does not adhere to the context of my posts. My wife is not all of the other women and I am not all of the other men. We are a couple and this thread expresses my concern and not the thoughts of what other women think. thank you for sharing and I will only reply to your posts if they have any value to them. again thank you for expressing your opinion.

 

[teachccd]

“if I could read” … nice guy you are too. You teach? Huh. Nice.

I can read just fine. I see you are an angry person who is lashing out. Sorry you feel the need to lash at the knights and at me when I think your relationship is just a little to sugary sweet. Usually things are not as they appear.

Thought you were going to bed an hour ago?

Tell your wife I feel for her and I understand her frustration sometimes!

I AM going to bed, since it is nearly midnight and I have to get up and really teach in 6 hours.

You seem really nice as well!! Did you read your posts to me? What do you teach? How to pass judgment on those you don’t know?? Fine lessons someone is getting. Good night and sweet dreams. I am sorry that you do not have the relationship that my wife and I have. I will keep you in my prayers and also your students who have a teacher that seems to know it all…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet. There are purported “oaths of the Knights of Columbus” that are utterly false, utterly fabricated, and would be laughable if they weren’t so pathetic. Anti-Catholic sites are quick to point to these so-called “secret oaths” as “proof” that the Knights are demonic and heretical and whatever else they think about Catholics.

As a matter of fact, wives have a special place with the Order. Wives are invited to attend parts of the Fourth Degree exemplification, for instance a luncheon for the ladies only and a banquet for all. Wives of Knights frequently attend and help out with our service projects. Widows of Knights will usually be given a lifetime membership card that will provide them free entrance to all dinners and other Knights-sponsored events. The Order, and particularly our insurance organization, was founded specifically to provide for widows and children of deceased members. We still maintain that charism to this day. Please don’t feel slighted by this organization because it is fraternal. The family is the “domestic Church” and it is the most important unit of the parish community. This is what the Church teaches, and this is what a good Knight will understand.

Yes, and throughout my posts I have never said anything to belittle what the Knights stand for in what they do for the community and the families. My only bone of contention is that we are not allowed to share the ceremonies with our wives and are sworn to secrecy, That just seems outdated and kind of odd. My wife and I share everything and I would like to express what happens in a Christian organization without having to forsake an oath. That is the whole issue here. I have some here who are judging my relationship with my wife and so on. Our relationship is very strong and is not to be questioned. But I am questioning an organization that has secret oaths especially in this time when the Chruch should be transparent due to the current scandal. I recognize the great things that are done and I just wish that this secret oath stuff could be done away with. But, hey, it;s not my organization and I don’t have to be a part of it. It’s my choice and I will make that choice. thank you for your time and God bless you…teachccd

 

[SKWill]

When my father died, we notified his chapter in Miami, Fla. I grew up with the knowlege that the 4th degree always showed up for the wake and in full dress for the funeral of one of their brothers.
Only 3 Knights came to my fathers rosary. After the prayers, they apologized that no Knights would be able to attend his funeral because a past Grand Knight from out of town had died an they had to attend his funeral. In addition, I grew up being told that when a 4th degree Knight passed away the origanization would donate a chalice in his name to a needy parish. When I asked about this on my fathers death, I was told “Oh, we don’t do that any more.”
My brother was a past Grand Knight and when he died, I notified the K of C powers that be and was told that since his chapter no longer existed, and they really did not know him, they had no one to attend his funeral. However, his bar buddies from the local VFW and the American Legion saw fit to attend…So much for the pretentions of the K of C.

I am genuinely sorry to hear about the bad experiences you had following the deaths of your father and your brother. Their councils and assemblies didn’t live up to their fraternal obligations in these cases, and you have a right to be upset with them. But is unfair to hold a grudge against the order as a whole for these regrettable incidents.

The memorial chalice program hasn’t been discontinued. If your family is still interested in receiving a chalice in your father’s memory for you to donate to a parish in need or to a seminarian, I would recommend contacting the State Deputy (the top knight in your state) for assistance. I can assist you with this if you wish.

In regards to the low turnout for your fathers funeral, all I can say is conflicts with other funerals sometimes happen. When that occurs it can be tough to recruit enough members on short notice to cover multiple funerals on the same day or in the same week. In regards to your brother’s funeral, that was a difficult situation since his council was no longer active. But the District Deputy, Diocesan Deputy or one of their representatives should have attended. Hearing this story second hand, I don’t know how much time they had to find someone appropriate that was available.

 

[teachccd]

I am genuinely sorry to hear about the bad experiences you had following the deaths of your father and your brother. Their councils and assemblies didn’t live up to their fraternal obligations in these cases, and you have a right to be upset with them. But is unfair to hold a grudge against the order as a whole for these regrettable incidents.

The memorial chalice program hasn’t been discontinued. If your family is still interested in receiving a chalice in your father’s memory for you to donate to a parish in need or to a seminarian, I would recommend contacting the State Deputy (the top knight in your state) for assistance. I can assist you with this if you wish.

In regards to the low turnout for your fathers funeral, all I can say is conflicts with other funerals sometimes happen. When that occurs it can be tough to recruit enough members on short notice to cover multiple funerals on the same day or in the same week. In regards to your brother’s funeral, that was a difficult situation since his council was no longer active. But the District Deputy, Diocesan Deputy or one of their representatives should have attended. Hearing this story second hand, I don’t know how much time they had to find someone appropriate that was available.

If the whole result of this thread was for you to offer these kind words to George then it was worth it. I just came here seeking sincere advice and I want to thank everyone who offered kind words and helpful advice. I expected the very few who had to make fun of me or question my motives but that’s ok. I have a much better understanding and have enough to work with in making my final decision. God bless you all and thanks again… Peace, the OP…

 

[dconklin]

This was a fun thread to read. Lots of drama and intrigue. It all could have been avoided by the two opportunities the OP was given to walk away before and during the 1st degree. As was stated very early in the thread, the secrecy is not to protect or hurt anyone but to help keep the degrees special. Does the bank manager tell his wife the vault’s combination? The three remaining degree ceremonies are all different and unique as well as catalysts for for personal spiritual growth and discovery.

Oh, and somewhere along the way the OP stated the KofC is part of the Church. It is not. It is a defender of the Church but not an official arm of the Church.

I applaud my brother Knights for helping the OP and defending our order, but sometimes as Jeremiah proclaimed in his 5th chapter, “this people’s heart is stubborn and rebellious; they turn and go away,”.

PAX!

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you but neither one of you addressed my question about the secrecy of the ceremonies. I have no doubt that they helped out in times of need. I joined because I know what good they do but I cannot get past the secrets that I cannot share with my wife. I have great respect for their community activites but I need someone to address my question about secrets. Thank you…

My father is a Fourth Degree Knight, a former KC Insurance Agent and has served at every capacity including District Deputy.

With all due respect, I think that you might be overly concerned. The 1st Degree process is secretive, yes, but, my mother never had any issues with it. She knew full well what the Knights did; in fact, whenever my dad had to install the new officers, she was there presenting the wives with a rose as each husband got his officer medal.

These “secrets” are part of the ritual. I suppose you can liken it to the early Church. The inquirers were not allowed to stay for what we would now call the “Liturgy of the Eucharist.” They were dismissed. In the case of the Knights, as with any other fraternal organization (religious or secular), there are rituals involved that do require secrecy.

By participating in the First Degree initiation rite, you would not be violating anything. The Knights were a part of my parents’ marriage up until my mother died. In fact, because she had done so much for the Knights, the local assembly even wanted to offer an honor guard for her, but, my dad declined.

If you still have any concerns, why don’t you ask the Council chaplain (who is almost always a priest)?

 

[teachccd]

This was a fun thread to read. Lots of drama and intrigue. It all could have been avoided by the two opportunities the OP was given to walk away before and during the 1st degree. As was stated very early in the thread, the secrecy is not to protect or hurt anyone but to help keep the degrees special. Does the bank manager tell his wife the vault’s combination? The three remaining degree ceremonies are all different and unique as well as catalysts for for personal spiritual growth and discovery.

Oh, and somewhere along the way the OP stated the KofC is part of the Church. It is not. It is a defender of the Church but not an official arm of the Church.

I applaud my brother Knights for helping the OP and defending our order, but sometimes as Jeremiah proclaimed in his 5th chapter, “this people’s heart is stubborn and rebellious; they turn and go away,”.

PAX!

I think that that quote from Jeremiah is towards God and not some man made organization. Yes, I could have walked away even though I was coerced by many Knights and almost all in the room are my friends. Yes, that made it soooo easy to walk out. You guys know what you are doing for membership and you do it quite well. I thought that as a 1st degree I was a brother Knight as well but your post makes me seem otherwise. So when a Knight has a concern they are immediately shunned?? Nice reply… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

My father is a Fourth Degree Knight, a former KC Insurance Agent and has served at every capacity including District Deputy.

With all due respect, I think that you might be overly concerned. The 1st Degree process is secretive, yes, but, my mother never had any issues with it. She knew full well what the Knights did; in fact, whenever my dad had to install the new officers, she was there presenting the wives with a rose as each husband got his officer medal.

These “secrets” are part of the ritual. I suppose you can liken it to the early Church. The inquirers were not allowed to stay for what we would now call the “Liturgy of the Eucharist.” They were dismissed. In the case of the Knights, as with any other fraternal organization (religious or secular), there are rituals involved that do require secrecy.

By participating in the First Degree initiation rite, you would not be violating anything. The Knights were a part of my parents’ marriage up until my mother died. In fact, because she had done so much for the Knights, the local assembly even wanted to offer an honor guard for her, but, my dad declined.

If you still have any concerns, why don’t you ask the Council chaplain (who is almost always a priest)?

Out of all the posts I only received a couple that realize my concern and treat it with respect and remedy. Thank you for your understanding advice. Do you know that if every Knight on this thread responded the way that you did that I might better understand what’s going on. I do believe that I should take your advice and find the Council Chaplin. Now those were good words. Thank you so much. I am not the rebellious outlaw that some want me to believe. God bless you and thanks again!

 

[momor]

This was a fun thread to read. **Lots of drama and intrigue. ** It all could have been avoided by the two opportunities the OP was given to walk away before and during the 1st degree. As was stated very early in the thread, the secrecy is not to protect or hurt anyone but to help keep the degrees special. Does the bank manager tell his wife the vault’s combination? The three remaining degree ceremonies are all different and unique as well as catalysts for for personal spiritual growth and discovery.

Oh, and somewhere along the way the OP stated the KofC is part of the Church. It is not. It is a defender of the Church but not an official arm of the Church.

I applaud my brother Knights for helping the OP and defending our order, but sometimes as Jeremiah proclaimed in his 5th chapter, “this people’s heart is stubborn and rebellious; they turn and go away,”.

PAX!

Drama and intrigue. Those were my thoughts too about the K of C ceremonies as I read through the comments. As a disinterested observer, my opinion of the group has diminished based on some of the personal comments and information shared here.

 

[vz71]

My wife and I share everything and I don’t need some organization telling me that I CANNOT tell my wife something that we do. Whether or not she cares is besides the point. My point here is that I have to question an organization that has secret oaths that cannot be shared with a soul mate. That is my point that most here fail to address. But that’s ok. I know what I have to do… teachccd

Perhaps you should take this up with your confessor.

If this is really what you make it out to be (a hinderance to your marriage and a violation of marriage vows) then your confessor can confirm this or explain why it is not so.
And with such, you have a ruling of if your religious vows in this particular constitute a religious obligation that would supercede the vows taken in the Knights.

I believe you will be disappointed to learn that your wedding vows do not obligate you to tell your wife everything…but I also believe that you would not place as much authority in what I have to say as you would your priest.

 

[teachccd]

Perhaps you should take this up with your confessor.

If this is really what you make it out to be (a hinderance to your marriage and a violation of marriage vows) then your confessor can confirm this or explain why it is not so.
And with such, you have a ruling of if your religious vows in this particular constitute a religious obligation that would supercede the vows taken in the Knights.

I believe you will be disappointed to learn that your wedding vows do not obligate you to tell your wife everything…but I also believe that you would not place as much authority in what I have to say as you would your priest.

I did take this up with my confessor. You see I am trying here. He said that I took an oath and that I should uphold the oath because I could have walked out. He also made some other comments about what he thought of the ceremonies which I will not repeat here and told me that I should question any organization that would require me from keeping something from my wife. Thank you for your advice and as you can see here are the results… God bless you… teachccd