Knights of Columbus

[teachccd]

Drama and intrigue. Those were my thoughts too about the K of C ceremonies as I read through the comments. As a disinterested observer, my opinion of the group has diminished based on some of the personal comments and information shared here.

I never meant to undermine what the Knights do as an organization and for the community at large. The Knights have a strong presence in the Church and I joined because of the good things that I have always witnessed and still see. It is just these secret ceremonies that don’t sit well with me and I might be a minority here but it is of great concern. I pray that you have the utmost respect for a group of men who donate so much of their time for the Church and its functions. I will always hold that point of view regardless of whether I continue to remain in the organization or not. Peace…teachccd

 

[momor]

I never meant to undermine what the Knights do as an organization and for the community at large. The Knights have a strong presence in the Church and I joined because of the good things that I have always witnessed and still see. It is just these secret ceremonies that don’t sit well with me and I might be a minority here but it is of great concern. I pray that you have the utmost respect for a group of men who donate so much of their time for the Church and its functions. I will always hold that point of view regardless of whether I continue to remain in the organization or not. Peace…teachccd

Not your doing, I formed my own opinion. I don’t question the good the KofC does - only the ways they think they need to go about it. Secret ceremonies and oaths, closed meetings, subtle (or not so subtle) pressure to keep quiet even if you leave (what the heck is in that oath?), high-pressure recruitment which at least one poster implied came from new recruit quotas to win awards. These do not do anything to glorify God IMO and in fact they embarrass me a little as a Catholic.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

If you have problems already, let me warn you that it may not get any better. For me, it got much worse. I questioned the secrecy, but since I’m not married, I didn’t have the problem you have. I still thought it was basically a good organization.

I’m trying to think of how to condense this long story. I’m disabled and on SSDI. I’m in Chapter 13 bankruptcy and behind on several bills. After the last of my credit cards was cut off at the end of 2005, I received the bill for my KoC dues. I wrote to the FS and asked if there wasn’t a dues waver for the disabled. The only response to my letter was another bill for dues, which I paid for that year, but not subsequent years.

This is getting long.

Cutting ahead, I finally was emailed an application for dues relief from the GK in January of 2009, which I filled in and personally gave to the outside guard at the next meeting, which was easy enough, as I live across the street from the church where they meet(!). After 2 years, a couple of unanswered emails to the GK, they still sent me several dues bills, still have my name on the unpaid list, and have not sent my membership cards. I was contacted twice by members about helping out at fundraisers, which I was willing to do if they could get back to me about it being okay to help without my dues being paid, and they never got back to me. On a positive note, the FC for the Fourth Degree and I have been in touch by email, and I have my card from him.

I’ve given up on the KofC. They’ve really blown the wind out of the sails on this Santa Maria.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

The Knight’s of Columbus “Oath of Secrecy” is specifically waived for any Civil or Religious authority. It states that right in the Oath. They also, as a part of the 1st Degree Ceremony, read that oath to you, and then ask you if you have any objections or reservations about taking that oath. If you do, you are totally free to leave.

Anyone that comes out and claims that this is something sinister, either has a motive for doing that, or they simply do not know what they are talking about.

The majority of Priests, Bishops, and many male religious are members of the Knight’s of Columbus. Do you truly think that they would join, much less support, any group that had ulterior motives?

If you truly have reservations, you can resign at any time. No person is forced to become a Knight, and if you do not whole heartedly support what they do, you SHOULD resign.

I would STRONGLY recommend that the author of this thread resign, as it appears that he has serious reservations.

And yes, I am a Knight, and am an officer of my Council as well as an officer in my 4th Degree Assembly. My wife attends all 4th Degree meetings, and she also takes part in as many activities of our Council and Assembly as possible. She is a quadraplegic, and she absolutely loves the Knights, and what that organization has done for me (I’ve only been a member for 3 years).

 

[vz71]

I did take this up with my confessor.

OK, so have we established that the secrets are not a breach of your marriage vows?

 

[teachccd]

The Knight’s of Columbus “Oath of Secrecy” is specifically waived for any Civil or Religious authority. It states that right in the Oath. They also, as a part of the 1st Degree Ceremony, read that oath to you, and then ask you if you have any objections or reservations about taking that oath. If you do, you are totally free to leave.

Anyone that comes out and claims that this is something sinister, either has a motive for doing that, or they simply do not know what they are talking about.

The majority of Priests, Bishops, and many male religious are members of the Knight’s of Columbus. Do you truly think that they would join, much less support, any group that had ulterior motives?

If you truly have reservations, you can resign at any time. No person is forced to become a Knight, and if you do not whole heartedly support what they do, you SHOULD resign.

I would STRONGLY recommend that the author of this thread resign, as it appears that he has serious reservations.

And yes, I am a Knight, and am an officer of my Council as well as an officer in my 4th Degree Assembly. My wife attends all 4th Degree meetings, and she also takes part in as many activities of our Council and Assembly as possible. She is a quadraplegic, and she absolutely loves the Knights, and what that organization has done for me (I’ve only been a member for 3 years).

I am the author of this thread and I thank you for your recommendation. I take all recommendations and then I will make my final decision taking into account all of the (name removed by moderator)ut. If you already read through the thread you will know that I am not here to discredit or undermine the K of C. I am here to understand something that was never disclosed to me prior to the ceremony. Yes they did ask me to leave in front of around thirty of my friends and fellow parishioners. Hardly the time to make a quick decision. I really do not want to give any particulars but since you brought it up, yes, I could have left but it was HIGHLY uncomfortable. That should have been asked of me privately and not where I am put on the spot. Anyway, enough of that and again I thank you for sharing your experience with the Knights… teachccd

PS. Please note that what I disclosed in my reply was already posted in The Old Medic’s post. I am not here to announce anything that is not already public knowledge. Thank you…

 

[teachccd]

OK, so have we established that the secrets are not a breach of your marriage vows?

We have established that any organization that requires one to take an oath that they cannot share with their wife should be questioned. Was my post not clear on that point?

 

[teachccd]

If you have problems already, let me warn you that it may not get any better. For me, it got much worse. I questioned the secrecy, but since I’m not married, I didn’t have the problem you have. I still thought it was basically a good organization.

I’m trying to think of how to condense this long story. I’m disabled and on SSDI. I’m in Chapter 13 bankruptcy and behind on several bills. After the last of my credit cards was cut off at the end of 2005, I received the bill for my KoC dues. I wrote to the FS and asked if there wasn’t a dues waver for the disabled. The only response to my letter was another bill for dues, which I paid for that year, but not subsequent years.

This is getting long.

Cutting ahead, I finally was emailed an application for dues relief from the GK in January of 2009, which I filled in and personally gave to the outside guard at the next meeting, which was easy enough, as I live across the street from the church where they meet(!). After 2 years, a couple of unanswered emails to the GK, they still sent me several dues bills, still have my name on the unpaid list, and have not sent my membership cards. I was contacted twice by members about helping out at fundraisers, which I was willing to do if they could get back to me about it being okay to help without my dues being paid, and they never got back to me. On a positive note, the FC for the Fourth Degree and I have been in touch by email, and I have my card from him.

I’ve given up on the KofC. They’ve really blown the wind out of the sails on this Santa Maria.

I am sorry to hear of your trials with the Knights but that does not address my only issue thus far. I do pray, however, that you can be reconciled back and that things will iron themselves out. God bless you… teachccd

 

[vz71]

We have established that any organization that requires one to take an oath that they cannot share with their wife should be questioned. Was my post not clear on that point?

No, it is still not clear.
If you are to question the organization for this, what exactly is the question?

 

[teachccd]

No, it is still not clear.
If you are to question the organization for this, what exactly is the question?

That would bring us all the way back to my first post…

 

[teachccd]

As the Original Poster, I would like to thank everyone here who took the time to respond. If you noticed I tried to respond to each and every post which is something that I don’t always see. I know that the end is here for this thread so please realize this and hold any future comments. God bless everyone here and I will continue to pray for all of the members of the Knights of Columbus and their families.

I would kindly ask if the** Moderators** could either close or delete this thread as it has been exhausted. Again thank you to all who responded… teachccd

 

[Della]

We have established that any organization that requires one to take an oath that they cannot share with their wife should be questioned. Was my post not clear on that point?

I’ve read this whole thread and no, this has not been established, it’s only been stated by you as absolute fact with nothing more to back it up than one priest’s opinion (and any priest’s opinion is only that and nothing more).

My dh is a 4th Degree Knight. We have been married nearly 30 years and share nearly everything with each other. I say nearly everything because there isn’t any way anyone can share absolutely everything with anyone else no matter how hard one might try.

No one is obligated to tell his/her spouse everything s/he knows, experiences, wants, feels, etc. There is no such marriage vow. Nor are spouses “soulmates”. We are one flesh, but our souls are our own.

You seem to be making decisions based on several false notions. There’s nothing “unChristian” about keeping a secret from one’s spouse. It is prudential to keep some things secret and it is perfectly harmless in this case.

What possible damage could it do to anyone’s marriage to keep the rites of a ceremonial secret from one’s spouse? I could care less what promises the KCs make. Why? Because 1) I’m not morbidly curious about what men want to do as a group. God knows we women have badgered men into revealing way too much about their personal lives as it is. Men share things with each other that women cannot understand or relate to nor do we care to. And women are the same–how many men really want to sit in on a “hen session”? And 2) No one, not even a spouse, has the absolute right to know everything the other spouse knows, etc. We are NOT obligated to tell each other everything. And it is often a good thing that we don’t.

As others have advised, talk to your Council Chaplain, Advocate or Grand Knight about your concerns. I’m sure the Chaplain will tell you your fears are unfounded.

 

[teachccd]

I’ve read this whole thread and no, this has not been established, it’s only been stated by you as absolute fact with nothing more to back it up than one priest’s opinion (and any priest’s opinion is only that and nothing more).

Nor are spouses “soulmates”. We are one flesh, but our souls are our own.

And that is your opinion…“only that and nothing more”.

I just found it necessary to respond since you took the time to read the whole thread. I am sorry that you do not consider your husband your “soulmate” but I do consider my wife mine… See how opinions differ??

OK… Now this has got to be it unless some other poor person wants to read all of this and comment… I do need to get out of this thread. We are done here and I have already made my decision. I am speaking with the Council’s Chaplain and I will go from there so PLEASE let this thread be done… teachccd

 

[vz71]

That would bring us all the way back to my first post…

Your first post contains many questions.
Yet you have been speaking of people not answering ‘the question’ (singular, apparently not referring to the many).
And as far as I can tell, many answers have already been provided by various posters.

Apparently there is some question you feel has not been answered.
So I am unclear as to what exactly the question is that you want answered.

 

[teachccd]

Your first post contains many questions.
Yet you have been speaking of people not answering ‘the question’ (singular, apparently not referring to the many).
And as far as I can tell, many answers have already been provided by various posters.

Apparently there is some question you feel has not been answered.
So I am unclear as to what exactly the question is that you want answered.

Thank you for your eagerness to help but I will seek my remedy as mentioned in the above posts. Have a good day… Please no more additions to this thread. I will be around for a little bit but once I go, I’m off of this thread… PLEASE believe me!!

 

[Havard]

I think that that quote from Jeremiah is towards God and not some man made organization. Yes, I could have walked away even though I was coerced by many Knights and almost all in the room are my friends. Yes, that made it soooo easy to walk out. You guys know what you are doing for membership and you do it quite well. I thought that as a 1st degree I was a brother Knight as well but your post makes me seem otherwise. So when a Knight has a concern they are immediately shunned?? Nice reply… teachccd

Heyo, OP. I respect your desire for this thread to die, but permit me to emphasize a point:

If people were coercing you, of course that’s not cool, but it’s also not a practice the Knights espouse. If they mislead you (by words, acts, or omissions), again, that’s not part of the KofC handbook, that’s the fault of specific individuals. I hope your experiences with the KofC are more positive in the future, and if there’s anything I can do, don’t hesitate to let me (as a fellow Catholic or as a Knight) know.

 

[Della]

And that is your opinion…“only that and nothing more”.

No one priest’s opinion about the KCs is any better than mine or yours. Just because he is a priest doesn’t mean he cannot be wrong or cannot be biased. The priest you talked to is most likely not the Council Chaplain and may know very little about the KCs. Being a priest doesn’t make him all knowing. He’s a human being, after all, not God.

I just found it necessary to respond since you took the time to read the whole thread. I am sorry that you do not consider your husband your “soulmate” but I do consider my wife mine… See how opinions differ??

The term “soulmate” is an overly romantic one that has set up many a marriage for failure when reality doesn’t live up to such an idea. Married love is of God, not destiny. We will love all the more intensely in heaven, but we will no longer be married. The term “soulmate” suggests that people are mated for eternity, and that’s simply not the case. I object to the term not to the love you and your wife have for each other. How much I love my husband is between him and me–another thing that is allowed to be secret from others.

OK… Now this has got to be it unless some other poor person wants to read all of this and comment… I do need to get out of this thread. We are done here and I have already made my decision. I am speaking with the Council’s Chaplain and I will go from there so PLEASE let this thread be done… teachccd

It’s fine if you no longer want to discuss the issues but you can’t expect no response when your reply was less than kind. You seem to be carrying some kind of chip on your shoulder as if everything people are saying to you is a personal affront. No one here intended any such thing. Why so combative and so negative? You may want to think about that.

 

[momor]

Just an observation. Just about every wife of a KofC that posted dismissed the OPs concern about secrecy in his marriage by saying the secrecy didn’t bother them. Really? Is that the standard for what should concern others - whether it bothers you or not? Then if the OP tried to explain why it bothered him the comeback was to critique something about his marriage and being too close. I can’t believe one of you even went so far as to offer criticism on pastoral advice given in a confessional.

Ladies, you’re not helping. And your tactics sure are similar…

 

[Della]

Just an observation. Just about every wife of a KofC that posted dismissed the OPs concern about secrecy in his marriage by saying the secrecy didn’t bother them. Really? Is that the standard for what should concern others - whether it bothers you or not? Then if the OP tried to explain why it bothered him the comeback was to critique something about his marriage and being too close. I can’t believe one of you even went so far as to offer criticism on pastoral advice given in a confessional.

Ladies, you’re not helping. And your tactics sure are similar…

All of us ladies are MARRIED to KCs. And no, a priest’s “advise” in confession is only his opinion. We don’t need to deify priests nor is their opinion any better in confession than outside of it. The OP has been belligerent and dismissive of anything that went against his preconceived notions. That’s the problem here, not that we women have expressed what we know from lived experience. Sheesh!

 

[teachccd]

Heyo, OP. I respect your desire for this thread to die, but permit me to emphasize a point:

If people were coercing you, of course that’s not cool, but it’s also not a practice the Knights espouse. If they mislead you (by words, acts, or omissions), again, that’s not part of the KofC handbook, that’s the fault of specific individuals. I hope your experiences with the KofC are more positive in the future, and if there’s anything I can do, don’t hesitate to let me (as a fellow Catholic or as a Knight) know.

thank you…