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teachccd
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Fair enough…
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teachccd
Guest
Hi Della!! Hey, everyday is a new day and I am not offended. I do thank you for your kindness in this post. I have heard of Cursillo but I am not that familiar with it. Do they make you take a pledge or oath of secrecy? There is a huge difference. I fully understand the concept. We have with our Confirmation retreat an activity called the “Trust Walk”. We do it every year for our Level Two retreats. The experience is mind blowing for the kids especially how it ends. Now we highly encourage the kids not to tell their younger siblings so as not to spoil the experience. But we do not have them swear an oath of secrecy that would cause them shame if they were to tell. There is one thing to have a common knowledge of not disclosing something for the benefit of others and hold people under oath not to divluge anything even to their spouses.
Now, I do have to say that you do not speak for all wives. One of the Knights who came in when I did had very difficult time since his wife has my viewpoint on this. She was not comfortable with the secrecy and he resigned. So while you may be very much at peace with the way things are done you cannot speak for all. I have also spoken with other men who said that they would not be interested in such an ceremonial oath of secrecy.
I appreciate your comments and (name removed by moderator)ut. I respect that you have the encouragement for your husband as my wife has for me. This is totally my deal since we have never kept secrets and after 30 years I don’t find the need to start. I pray that you respect my opinion even if you totally disagree with it. May God bless you and again thank you for your time… teachccd
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Della
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Of course, I never expected that I would speak for all wives of anyone who ever was a part of the KCs. I can only speak for those, like me, whose husbands are now a part of it and find it an enriching experience.
And I never meant to say that Cursillo is just the same as KC initiation rites, only to point out that it is far from “unChristian” to keep a secret, even from one’s spouse.
Also, you have never said (I could be wrong but I don’t recall reading it) if your wife is having a problem with you keeping secret the initiation you went through. How does she really feel about it? That’s just for you two to discuss, of course.
I think you came here with you mind made up and so nothing we have written (99% of it completely reasonable and correct according to the Church) is going to sway you. Note, I have not said you are not allowed to stick to your original opinion, just that you don’t seem open to hearing anything that contradicts it. I don’t write that out of meanness but as a truthful observation.
I still think you and your wife need to talk to the Council Chaplain about this. That’s what I advise. Not out of disgust or anything, but strictly because my time and energy is limited, I am leaving this thread. God bless you and yours.
And I never meant to say that Cursillo is just the same as KC initiation rites, only to point out that it is far from “unChristian” to keep a secret, even from one’s spouse.
Also, you have never said (I could be wrong but I don’t recall reading it) if your wife is having a problem with you keeping secret the initiation you went through. How does she really feel about it? That’s just for you two to discuss, of course.
I think you came here with you mind made up and so nothing we have written (99% of it completely reasonable and correct according to the Church) is going to sway you. Note, I have not said you are not allowed to stick to your original opinion, just that you don’t seem open to hearing anything that contradicts it. I don’t write that out of meanness but as a truthful observation.
I still think you and your wife need to talk to the Council Chaplain about this. That’s what I advise. Not out of disgust or anything, but strictly because my time and energy is limited, I am leaving this thread. God bless you and yours.
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CatholicBoy1957
Guest
I get the impression of this organization causing you considerable angst, and you’ve only just begun. Has there been any demonstration, so far, that this organization will benefit your soul in eternity, and that these benefits you’ve seen outweigh the negative you’ve experienced?
For me, I thought there was going to be a benefit to outweigh the oath I had to take, and, after about 25 years, I have deep regrets about being a member.
For me, I thought there was going to be a benefit to outweigh the oath I had to take, and, after about 25 years, I have deep regrets about being a member.
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Havard
Guest
May I ask what those deep regrets are? I haven’t been a member for nearly that long, but I can’t for the life of me imagine what’d cause such negative feelings.
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teachccd
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Hi Della! My wife respects me implicitly so that if I were to choose to move on in this she would respect my decision even though she does find it quite odd. It is me, as I have already expressed, that has a problem with bringing “secrets” into a marriage. Now, am I being unrealistic in acknowledging that not every minute detail of one’s life must be shared? Of course not. There are times when out of love or prudence I **choose **not to share something that I feel will only upset her and is not to the benefit of our relationship. An example might be either moral or practical. A moral decision to keep something might be in my weakness in sin. As a man of integrity it is my goal to hold my wife in an honor. So in my weaknesses if I fail in the area of thoughts or glances I do not feel that I need to run home and share that with my wife. I am not proud of those failures and so I take them up with my confessor and move on. And a practical level, I might keep things that I hear on the construction site that are crude from her. If I pass a bad auto accident then I might keep the details of the scene to myself. So please understand that I know that not EVERYTHING has to be revealed.Of course, I never expected that I would speak for all wives of anyone who ever was a part of the KCs. I can only speak for those, like me, whose husbands are now a part of it and find it an enriching experience.
And I never meant to say that Cursillo is just the same as KC initiation rites, only to point out that it is far from “unChristian” to keep a secret, even from one’s spouse.
Also, you have never said (I could be wrong but I don’t recall reading it) if your wife is having a problem with you keeping secret the initiation you went through. How does she really feel about it? That’s just for you two to discuss, of course.
I think you came here with you mind made up and so nothing we have written (99% of it completely reasonable and correct according to the Church) is going to sway you. Note, I have not said you are not allowed to stick to your original opinion, just that you don’t seem open to hearing anything that contradicts it. I don’t write that out of meanness but as a truthful observation.
I still think you and your wife need to talk to the Council Chaplain about this. That’s what I advise. Not out of disgust or anything, but strictly because my time and energy is limited, I am leaving this thread. God bless you and yours.
But in this case I can choose whether or not to belong to an organization. I volunteer countless hours in our Religious Education program at my parish. I also help out in other acitvities in the parish. But NOTHING has ever required me to keep secrets from my wife as a form of an oath. I believe that as spouses we should be able to choose what and when to tell our spouses whatever we wish to tell them.
In closing, I want to say that I did come here with a strong conviction. So you ask," Then what did you expect from us?" Well, at least a bit of charity which I did not receive from many here. Some yes, many no. I would have liked it if at least someone could have sympathized with my concern rather than attack it. Now I do have a Knight who PM’d me and is looking into my concern with a fellow Knight and is going to get back with me to see if there is anything that can be done regarding my concern. THAT is what I was looking for and I found it. I also found that it took over 100 posts to get that one Knight to really take action to help me. There’s much to be said about that as well.
So, again I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and your time. God bless you and I hope that I expressed what you were looking for. Have a blessed day!
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Havard
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I don’t know who pm’d you but I’d like to point out that he’s not the only Knight who’s trying to understand or help…
At any rate, I would also like to point out that the secrets of the degree ceremonies are very much practical ones just like you mentioned. Will a wife benefit in any way in knowing them? I can’t think of how, personally. On the other hand, there is a practicality behind having a policy that limits the goings-on solely to people who have promised to keep them secret. This isn’t a statement about the trustworthiness or wives or women in general, it’s just a reality that for anyone who isn’t part of the ceremonies, no oaths bind them, and oaths of secrecy are a method of keeping something confidential.
At any rate, I would also like to point out that the secrets of the degree ceremonies are very much practical ones just like you mentioned. Will a wife benefit in any way in knowing them? I can’t think of how, personally. On the other hand, there is a practicality behind having a policy that limits the goings-on solely to people who have promised to keep them secret. This isn’t a statement about the trustworthiness or wives or women in general, it’s just a reality that for anyone who isn’t part of the ceremonies, no oaths bind them, and oaths of secrecy are a method of keeping something confidential.
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. No one has said otherwise. And I don’t believe anyone intended to be uncharitable. They may have been frustrated–that often happens in discussions. You too admitted to being frustrated and I think it’s because we’ve been talking past one another here.Hi Della! My wife respects me implicitly so that if I were to choose to move on in this she would respect my decision even though she does find it quite odd. It is me, as I have already expressed, that has a problem with bringing “secrets” into a marriage. Now, am I being unrealistic in acknowledging that not every minute detail of one’s life must be shared? Of course not. There are times when out of love or prudence I **choose **not to share something that I feel will only upset her and is not to the benefit of our relationship. An example might be either moral or practical. A moral decision to keep something might be in my weakness in sin. As a man of integrity it is my goal to hold my wife in an honor. So in my weaknesses if I fail in the area of thoughts or glances I do not feel that I need to run home and share that with my wife. I am not proud of those failures and so I take them up with my confessor and move on. And a practical level, I might keep things that I hear on the construction site that are crude from her. If I pass a bad auto accident then I might keep the details of the scene to myself. So please understand that I know that not EVERYTHING has to be revealed.
But in this case I can choose whether or not to belong to an organization. I volunteer countless hours in our Religious Education program at my parish. I also help out in other acitvities in the parish. But NOTHING has ever required me to keep secrets from my wife as a form of an oath. I believe that as spouses we should be able to choose what and when to tell our spouses whatever we wish to tell them.
In closing, I want to say that I did come here with a strong conviction. So you ask," Then what did you expect from us?" Well, at least a bit of charity which I did not receive from many here. Some yes, many no. I would have liked it if at least someone could have sympathized with my concern rather than attack it. Now I do have a Knight who PM’d me and is looking into my concern with a fellow Knight and is going to get back with me to see if there is anything that can be done regarding my concern. THAT is what I was looking for and I found it. I also found that it took over 100 posts to get that one Knight to really take action to help me. There’s much to be said about that as well.
So, again I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and your time. God bless you and I hope that I expressed what you were looking for. Have a blessed day!
No one is questioning your love for your wife or your committment to her. Frankly, if she knew what you went through in your initiation, as a woman, she would probably think it nice, but just a bit silly. We women don’t think like you men–it’s why we don’t have secret ceremonies. They just seem unnecessary to us. But, for many men they are a bolster and a help for being strong Catholic gentlemen and I wouldn’t take that away from anyone. Again, not that that is what you are proposing just an explanation of why it’s important to the Knights. You are already involved in youth ministry. It may be enough for you and you don’t need what other men might need. Being involved in the KCs is voluntary, after all. If it doesn’t suit you then resign.
And at least one other Knight here suggested you ask if you can have permission to tell your wife what you experienced in your initiation rites. Truly, it wasn’t up to him to make anything happen for you. If you have a problem all you have to do is ask your Grand Knight for help. No one here can do anything for you that you can’t/should’t do for yourself in this matter. So, now it’s up to you. Be a KC or not, but please recognize that the KCs have good reasons for keeping their ceremonies secret which have worked well for them since their inception. As Chestertoon once observed, there’s no need to remove something if it serves a good purpose and you have nothing better to replace it with. Now I really must be going. I have laundry and writing and cats to care for. LOL!
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momor
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Havard
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You’re absolutely right that the good an organization does isn’t proof that it can’t also have shady motivations. But is there even a debate that the KofC has shady motivations?
The only secret is the ceremonies, and even then, it’s not the theme of each degree so much as the way it’s demonstrated that’s secret. The themes of the degrees are on the KofC website, for heaven’s sake!
Divulging the content of the ceremonies is akin to telling someone who hasn’t seen Citizen Kane the meaning of Rosebud. You gain nothing, plus you ruined the experience for them.
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CatholicBoy1957
Guest
I hate making long posts, especially when it comes to my personal trials, so can we take this a step at a time?May I ask what those deep regrets are? I haven’t been a member for nearly that long, but I can’t for the life of me imagine what’d cause such negative feelings.
Regarding my previous post on this thread, how unreasonable was I being to expect them to send my membership card to me? That, I would think, is just a bare minimum. I could have paid my dues, and did pay them for 2006, even though I had stopped taking all of my drugs, and wound up at the emergency room, which is another story, but I was told I would have been dead in 24 hours had I not came when I did. I should have had money from my insurance taking out a loan, but the KofC representative never processed the loan for me. I could pay my dues now, but I’m already behind on my bills, so I would just be behind on another bill, and I’ve already hit up the priest for money for heating fuel twice this winter. Would that make sense?
It’s not as though they’re paying it; they would be waiving it. It would be like the local theater owner, who’s weekday matinee attracts about 50 people, for a 500+ capacity, if he sees his mom, and says, “hey, you can go in if you like”, would his projector use more electricity for that one person that he gave a freebee, who wasn’t going to go in anway? I’m not going to pay my dues now, and they would have even benefitted, because as I mentioned previously, I was willing to help at their fundraisers, but was not permitted. And then they moaned that nobody wanted to help at the fundraisers. Even if I hit the lottery for a million at this point, I wouldn’t spit my money away giving them the dues, now that my eyes have been opened.
For a member that is disabled, I would think that a dues waiver is an absolute bare minimum, as it costs them nothing, so I guess I’m not going to expect anything more if they can’t even do that one thing.
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CatholicBoy1957
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I hope you realize, of course, that some of the men have indeed been told about the ceremonies before time anyway, right? I can’t tell you how I know, because I’d be divulging something myself
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momor
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Please don’t discount the damage that secretiveness does just because you know there is nothing sinister. That’s all I’m trying to say. I was able to google all kinds of crazy stuff about the Knights. Is there a raging public debate? No. But there is plenty of stuff on fundie websites and others. Army of the Jesuits, Killers of Abe Lincoln, etc. etc. They point to how well the secrets have been kept to prove the nefarious nature of it. When you stack up their inferences that men or families will be killed if they talk, to the Knights explanation that we keep it secret so it’s stays special - I hope you can understand why those disposed to think the worst about Catholics would find that reason lame.
There is a lot a hatred of Catholicism simmering out there. Look at Westboro. While many object to their tactics, they don’t disagree with their message. The priest scandals have given people like that all the recent “proof” they need to claim we are evil and secretive.
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Havard
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To CatholicBoy1957,
Do you know who made the decision not to waive the dues, and why? When I forgot about my dues last year, no one mentioned anything to me until I remembered it… so I think a lot of that comes down to who your treasurer is. But that’s not an organization-wide issue, it’s about the charity of whichever man or men made that decision, isn’t it?
Regarding your comment about some men getting let in on the secret beforehand, I’m not sure what to think because the comment itself is vague. I’ve never heard of that… what is it that I’m supposed to make of it?
Do you know who made the decision not to waive the dues, and why? When I forgot about my dues last year, no one mentioned anything to me until I remembered it… so I think a lot of that comes down to who your treasurer is. But that’s not an organization-wide issue, it’s about the charity of whichever man or men made that decision, isn’t it?
Regarding your comment about some men getting let in on the secret beforehand, I’m not sure what to think because the comment itself is vague. I’ve never heard of that… what is it that I’m supposed to make of it?
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Havard
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Oh you’re absolutely right that the rabid anti-Catholics are going to pick at it. I can imagine a Jack Chick tract in my mind about the KofC, heck, there probably already is one for all I know.
This is just my personal opinion, so please don’t attribute this Knight’s to the organization, but although I do believe in presenting the best face to the rest of the world, at some point you realize that there are people who will paint you as the devil no matter what you say or do. So while the secrecy of the degree ceremonies may be ‘ammunition’ for anti-Catholics, I’m hard-pressed to imagine a rational person who’d be swayed against Catholicism based on such an utterly irrelevant detail.
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teachccd
Guest
I’m wondering how you came to the conclusion that what goes on in the ceremony is “silly”? How do you know this as a woman? Hmmm… Has me thinking…You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. No one has said otherwise. And I don’t believe anyone intended to be uncharitable. They may have been frustrated–that often happens in discussions. You too admitted to being frustrated and I think it’s because we’ve been talking past one another here.
No one is questioning your love for your wife or your committment to her. Frankly, if she knew what you went through in your initiation, as a woman, she would probably think it nice, but just a bit silly. We women don’t think like you men–it’s why we don’t have secret ceremonies. They just seem unnecessary to us. But, for many men they are a bolster and a help for being strong Catholic gentlemen and I wouldn’t take that away from anyone. Again, not that that is what you are proposing just an explanation of why it’s important to the Knights. You are already involved in youth ministry. It may be enough for you and you don’t need what other men might need. Being involved in the KCs is voluntary, after all. If it doesn’t suit you then resign.
And at least one other Knight here suggested you ask if you can have permission to tell your wife what you experienced in your initiation rites. Truly, it wasn’t up to him to make anything happen for you. If you have a problem all you have to do is ask your Grand Knight for help. No one here can do anything for you that you can’t/should’t do for yourself in this matter. So, now it’s up to you. Be a KC or not, but please recognize that the KCs have good reasons for keeping their ceremonies secret which have worked well for them since their inception. As Chestertoon once observed, there’s no need to remove something if it serves a good purpose and you have nothing better to replace it with. Now I really must be going. I have laundry and writing and cats to care for. LOL!
Anyhow, I’m just going to let this thread die out on its own unless you can close it. I don’t know how to have a thread closed but I think that it’s time… Thank you and God bless… teachccd
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momor
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I get what you are saying and mostly agree. But my concern is about the people who are not wholely rational on the subject of religion. I probably consider them capable of doing more harm than you do. Heaven knows the Church has recently given them all the ammunition they need to load their guns and pull the trigger.
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CatholicBoy1957
Guest
No, it isn’t, at least not completely. The decision is made at New Haven. They are supposed to follow rules that the organization made. Maybe they did approve my application. Maybe someone at my council did things their own way, despite the application. I don’t know. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I emailed the GK several times, and didn’t even get the courtesy of a reply of any kind from him after submitting the app, which he did send to me after I emailed him in response to his comments in the monthly newsletter. I spoke on the phone to the person that became the current GK, and was in touch with another Knight about it that I see often at mass and retreat. They didn’t get back to me about it. I contacted the FS by mail.
You made a comparison. I thought, "Hey, there probably are some people that know what “Rosebud” means. Your comparison to “Rosebud” might be appropriate if there’s a lot of people that know what “Rosebud” means before seeing the movie. I guess CCDTeacher takes oaths more seriously than some people.
I have another thought. You could probably do a web-search and find out what “Rosebud” means. Let me do a web-search about the ceremonies. By jove! There’s the entire text of the first degree ceremony, and I only spent one minute!
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larsenl1
Guest
From reading forums and even posting on the same thread with you, for me to see that you, the most well thought out resource that I have yet encountered other than an actual priest in face to face discussions, I have to say I am amazed and now leary of this. The men at my church are hounding my husband to join.
Thank you for posting for others to ponder.
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