Knights of Malta head resigns after dispute with Vatican

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gilliam said:
Their ‘sovereignty’ was established by a Papal Bull. What one pope can order another can change. There was always way too much discussion here about how ‘sovereign’ they were. They are a religious order established by the Church that is subservient to the Church.
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Yes. It just seems there’s a disconnect. Of course the Pope can do this…but this is the same Pope who has spoken of his commitment to synodality and decentralization in the Church. Yet in practice he seems to flex muscles of papal supremacy that Benedict never would have. Its his right, of course, but I don’t get it.
 
gilliam said:
Their ‘sovereignty’ was established by a Papal Bull. What one pope can order another can change. There was always way too much discussion here about how ‘sovereign’ they were. They are a religious order established by the Church that is subservient to the Church.
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Just a side note:

I am very impressed that in four sentences you managed to use their, there and they are. All of them correct. I am trying to decide if you did this on purpose. A grammar lesson embedded in your post? Many of my posts I accidentally use there in place of their and have to go back to edit. Or just live with it if the edit time has expired.
 
twf said:
Yes. It just seems there’s a disconnect. Of course the Pope can do this…but this is the same Pope who has spoken of his commitment to synodality and decentralization in the Church. Yet in practice he seems to flex muscles of papal supremacy that Benedict never would have. Its his right, of course, but I don’t get it.
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Hard to say because I can’t think of a time when Benedict was so publicly defied.
 
twf said:
Yes. It just seems there’s a disconnect. Of course the Pope can do this…but this is the same Pope who has spoken of his commitment to synodality and decentralization in the Church. Yet in practice he seems to flex muscles of papal supremacy that Benedict never would have. Its his right, of course, but I don’t get it.
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I am pretty sure Benedict did similar things when someone deliberately disobeyed or refused to obey his direction.
 
ringil said:
Hard to say because I can’t think of a time when Benedict was so publicly defied.
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What’s really going on here though? Surely the Pope doesn’t support the distribution of condoms… and this whole situation started with the dismissal of an officer who WAS implicated in doing just that. I’m sure there’s more to it but this is how it appears on the surface:
  1. Knights distribute condoms to the poor
  2. Grand Master finds out and fires the officer responsible for distributing condoms
  3. Pope is upset that said officer was fired and appoints commission to investigate
  4. Grand Master doesn’t want to cooperate with commission
  5. Grand Master is asked to resign
  6. Pope takes over Order, overturning centuries of tradition / sovereignty under international law (reference to the Papal Delegate to be appointed).
What will happen to the diplomatic relations the Order enjoys with dozens of nations? Or does the Pope essentially become the Sovereign of both states - the Vatican and the Knights of Malta - ruling through his delegate?
 
twf said:
What’s really going on here though? Surely the Pope doesn’t support the distribution of condoms… and this whole situation started with the dismissal of an officer who WAS implicated in doing just that. I’m sure there’s more to it but this is how it appears on the surface:
  1. Knights distribute condoms to the poor
  2. Grand Master finds out and fires the officer responsible for distributing condoms
  3. Pope is upset that said officer was fired and appoints commission to investigate
  4. Grand Master doesn’t want to cooperate with commission
  5. Grand Master is asked to resign
  6. Pope takes over Order, overturning centuries of tradition / sovereignty under international law (reference to the Papal Delegate to be appointed).
What will happen to the diplomatic relations the Order enjoys with dozens of nations? Or does the Pope essentially become the Sovereign of both states - the Vatican and the Knights of Malta - ruling through his delegate?
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It has nothing to do with the distribution of condoms. That was resolved.

It has to do with the fact that the Pope specifically instructed the Order not to fire anyone over the issue and they used it as an excuse to fire someone a few people in the Order didn’t like.
 
gilliam said:
It has to do with the fact that the Pope specifically instructed the Order not to fire anyone over the issue and they used it as an excuse to fire someone a few people in the Order didn’t like.
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Every outlet reporting the relevant details has indicted that the Vatican asked that nobody be fired only after Boeslager was fired. Boeselager was suspended on Dec 6, and the Secretary of State’s letter saying the Holy Father didn’t want anyone sent away was dated Dec 12.
 
twf said:
Interesting. So I take back what I said previously…there is precedent and its intended to be temporary.
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I would assume temporary too. But how sovereign is the group really, when another group picks and chooses their leadership at will?
 
twf said:
What will happen to the diplomatic relations the Order enjoys with dozens of nations? Or does the Pope essentially become the Sovereign of both states - the Vatican and the Knights of Malta - ruling through his delegate?
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Because the Order of Malta is sovereign under international law (unlike the Jesuits and the Legionaries), this is essentially the Holy See annexing a sovereign entity. This would be similar to the state of Italy exerting control over the Vatican City.
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Because the Order of Malta is sovereign under international law (unlike the Jesuits and the Legionaries), this is essentially the Holy See annexing a sovereign entity. This would be similar to the state of Italy exerting control over the Vatican City.
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I suppose the difference is that the Order of Malta still recognizes the Bishop of Rome’s primacy over Christendom. In medieval Europe, Popes sometimes claimed the power to depose Christian princes. Of course this situation is more complicated as the Order is also a religious order of the Church and thus bound by canon law.
 
Big concern over Festing’s leadership of Knights was UK abuse scandal. One knight who failed to report now on order’s governing council.

There lot more to this we don’t know about.
 
twf said:
I suppose the difference is that the Order of Malta still recognizes the Bishop of Rome’s primacy over Christendom. In medieval Europe, Popes sometimes claimed the power to depose Christian princes. Of course this situation is more complicated as the Order is also a religious order of the Church and thus bound by canon law.
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Yep. Very interesting and truly unfortunate situation.

This article from the Catholic Herald addresses the situation as well:

The Vatican has destroyed the Order of Malta’s sovereignty. What if Italy does the same to the Vatican?
 
gilliam said:
The head of the Knights of Malta, who has been locked in a bitter dispute with the Vatican, has resigned, a spokesperson for the Rome-based Catholic chivalric and charity organization said on Wednesday.

The spokesperson said Grand Master Matthew Festing had resigned after Pope Francis asked him to step down at a meeting on Tuesday. Grand Masters of the group, which was founded in the 11th century, usually keep their position for life.

reut.rs/2jc4aCt
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From what I’ve heard, there is a little more going on here. (see link) To oversimplify, there is a question as to whether the papal committee has the jurisdiction to take this action. And given all I have seen and followed of where the Vatican is headed on a variety of fronts now, I suspect there are probably very good grounds for the question. Not to be a Debbie downer but if it walks like a duck - where are those darn mercy glasses.
The forced resignation of Fra’ Festing came after a committee appointed by Pope Francis had investigated the controversy that arose when the grand master ousted Albrecht von Boeselager, who had been chancellor of the (name removed by moderator). The (name removed by moderator) had protested the investigation, saying that the chancellor’s removal was an act of internal governance and the Vatican probe was a violation of the group’s sovereignty. Further, the leadership of the Knights had asserted that members of the papal committee had serious conflicts of interest: an apparent reference to the fact that some members had business ties with Boeselager. Nevertheless the papal committee continued its work and, apparently, reached a quick conclusion that a change in leadership was necessary.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=30575
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View attachment 23689
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Because the Order of Malta is sovereign under international law (unlike the Jesuits and the Legionaries), this is essentially the Holy See annexing a sovereign entity. This would be similar to the state of Italy exerting control over the Vatican City.
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That would be (sort of) true if Italy and the Vatican were both controlled by the same entity, but they are not. In this case, both entities are controlled by the Pope, and the “sovereignty” of (name removed by moderator) is somewhat conceptual.
 
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