Know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

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Is it possible to know that we are saved, and will have eternal life? I got into this debate with a protestant, and he quoted 1 John 5:13 to me.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I thought it was the Catholic standpoint that no one knows who will have eternal life, until God decides.

Doesn’t this scripture seem to contradict this?

Thanks.
 
dcharlesworth said:
Is it possible to know that we are saved, and will have eternal life? I got into this debate with a protestant, and he quoted 1 John 5:13 to me.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I thought it was the Catholic standpoint that no one knows who will have eternal life, until God decides.

Doesn’t this scripture seem to contradict this?

Thanks.
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What the protestant was proposing to you is their “doctrine” of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, (OSAS), which is a new teaching which began fairly early into the so called reformation in the mid 1500s. It is especially held by the followers of John Calvin. I believe it is wishful thinking on their part.

There are lots of threads on the forums all the time, with folks throwing lots of scripture verses around to make their point. The Catholic teaching, based on the totality of the scripture is that once a believer is in a state of sanctifying grace after accepting faith in God through Jesus the Redeemer, (which grace is a free gift of God which we must accept to ever be “saved”), nothing outside you can take you away from that saving faith. The difference between many non-catholic Christians and Catholics is the protestants claim nothing at all, even your own decision to reject your faith in God by committing deliberate serious or mortal sin can take away your “salvation”.

If anyone “cherry picks” their verses of scripture, accepting those they like and believe make their point and ignores the rest, they can come to that conclusion when relying on their own interpretation of those picked verses. The Catholic Church has always taught that we must study issues based on the totality of Scripture, not just on those select few verses we like.

All Christians believe that God is all powerful, and when in relationship with Him through His Son, He provides us the grace we need to resist further sin. Catholics believe that God loves us so much that He doesn’t force us to stay in that relationship, but will reluctantly let us walk away if that is the foolish choice we make.

I hope I have answered your question. Search on the forums for OSAS, and its alias “Eternal Security” and you will find a great deal of disagreement.

God Bless
 
Mike_Brick said:
What the protestant was proposing to you is their “doctrine” of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, (OSAS), which is a new teaching which began fairly early into the so called reformation in the mid 1500s. It is especially held by the followers of John Calvin. I believe it is wishful thinking on their part.

There are lots of threads on the forums all the time, with folks throwing lots of scripture verses around to make their point. The Catholic teaching, based on the totality of the scripture is that once a believer is in a state of sanctifying grace after accepting faith in God through Jesus the Redeemer, (which grace is a free gift of God which we must accept to ever be “saved”), nothing outside you can take you away from that saving faith. The difference between many non-catholic Christians and Catholics is the protestants claim nothing at all, even your own decision to reject your faith in God by committing deliberate serious or mortal sin can take away your “salvation”.

If anyone “cherry picks” their verses of scripture, accepting those they like and believe make their point and ignores the rest, they can come to that conclusion when relying on their own interpretation of those picked verses. The Catholic Church has always taught that we must study issues based on the totality of Scripture, not just on those select few verses we like.

All Christians believe that God is all powerful, and when in relationship with Him through His Son, He provides us the grace we need to resist further sin. Catholics believe that God loves us so much that He doesn’t force us to stay in that relationship, but will reluctantly let us walk away if that is the foolish choice we make.

I hope I have answered your question. Search on the forums for OSAS, and its alias “Eternal Security” and you will find a great deal of disagreement.

God Bless
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We got onto that topic as well. But this one was a very distinct seperate topic. I stemmed from speaking about whether we can know that we will have eternal life. I said that no, we don’t know that untill we are judged by God. He quoted this scripture to me, to basically say that yes we can and should know. He wasn’t disputing that you can fall from that saving grace. He believes that you can, and are not neccesarily saved forever for certain. But when you are in relationship with Jesus Christ, and take him as your Lord and savior, and have true faith in him (with what works are needed to give true faith) then you can know that you are saved.

Where have I gone wrong on this?
 
There was a man who was called by Christ as He passed by. The man followed Him, submitting to Him, learning and growing in faith before the eyes of men and of God. He travelled with Jesus for three years, teaching, healing, casting out demons and performing other miracles. He was most certainly “saved”.

However, Satan entered him and he betrayed our Lord for thirty pieces of silver. “…but, woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Matthew 26:24)

Sound like Judas was still “saved”?
 
po18guy said:
There was a man who was called by Christ as He passed by. The man followed Him, submitting to Him, learning and growing in faith before the eyes of men and of God. He travelled with Jesus for three years, teaching, healing, casting out demons and performing other miracles. He was most certainly “saved”.

However, Satan entered him and he betrayed our Lord for thirty pieces of silver. “…but, woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Matthew 26:24)

Sound like Judas was still “saved”?
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No, it doesn’t but again I can’t help but feel this is another issue. No one is disputing that you can lose your “saved” status. But is it not also true, that if you don’t betray Jesus, and you do your best to keep his commandments, and confess your sins and strive to be holy that you can know you will inherit eternal life? I think that is what 1 John 5:13 is saying.
 
dcharlesworth said:
No, it doesn’t but again I can’t help but feel this is another issue. No one is disputing that you can lose your “saved” status. But is it not also true, that if you don’t betray Jesus, and you do your best to keep his commandments, and confess your sins and strive to be holy that you can know you will inherit eternal life? I think that is what 1 John 5:13 is saying.
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I agree completely that if “don’t betray Jesus, and you do your best to keep his commandments, and confess your sins and strive to be holy that you can know you will inherit eternal life”

However, If you can lose your saved status, how do you know that you will “not betray Jesus, do your best to keep his commandments, confess your sins and strive to be holy?”

We can’t tell the future. This is why Holy Mother Church tells us “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)

JD
 
I would boil this down to two simple statements: that we can trust God with absolute certainty to keep his word and deliver what he has promised us, and that at the same time we cannot trust ourselves with absolute certainty to remain faithful and obedient until death. God will never “pull out of the deal”, but we might.

Yes, if we do those things God requires, we will be saved. I don’t think any Catholic would dispute that. But the problem arises when a person tries to get specific, and claim that he has and will remain faithful and obedient. That is looking into the future (something the bible warns against!), and that is what is presumptuous.
 
dcharlesworth said:
No, it doesn’t but again I can’t help but feel this is another issue. No one is disputing that you can lose your “saved” status. But is it not also true, that if you don’t betray Jesus, and you do your best to keep his commandments, and confess your sins and strive to be holy that you can know you will inherit eternal life? I think that is what 1 John 5:13 is saying.
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Having experienced God’s mercy, we rely on his continuing mercy. Have you noticed that the penance you receive for your sins does not seem to make up for those sins? That is God’s mercy.

We cannot be co conceited as to assume salvation, as my prior post suggests. To do so is to put our Lord to the test. According to Jesus (Matthew 4:7), we are not to do that.

johndigger said it well: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

Christ’s PEACE.
 
Mike_Brick said:
What the protestant was proposing to you is their “doctrine” of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, (OSAS), which is a new teaching which began fairly early into the so called reformation in the mid 1500s. It is especially held by the followers of John Calvin. I believe it is wishful thinking on their part.
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How do you get OSAS out of that scripture verse? :confused:
 
mrs_abbott said:
How do you get OSAS out of that scripture verse? :confused:
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I don’t, and based on dcharlesworth’s second post, I apparently misunderstood the extent of his discussion with the protestant he wrote about in his OP.

Peace be with you
 
dcharlesworth said:
We got onto that topic as well. But this one was a very distinct seperate topic. I stemmed from speaking about whether we can know that we will have eternal life. I said that no, we don’t know that untill we are judged by God. He quoted this scripture to me, to basically say that yes we can and should know. He wasn’t disputing that you can fall from that saving grace. He believes that you can, and are not neccesarily saved forever for certain. But when you are in relationship with Jesus Christ, and take him as your Lord and savior, and have true faith in him (with what works are needed to give true faith) then you can know that you are saved.

Where have I gone wrong on this?
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It sounds like the deeper your relationship is with Christ, the deeper understanding you’ll have about Him in your life and what it means to really know Him. Kinda like a best friend that you have on earth. :o
I, personally, haven’t achieved it but I know some that have and they seem to be very at peace with everything in their lives.
 
From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Sanctifying Grace A. Uncertainity, last paragraph:
Since no metaphysical certainty can be cherished in the matter of justification in any particular case, we must content ourselves with a moral certainty (emphasis mine), which, of course, is but warranted in the case of baptized children, and which, in the case of adults diminishes more or less, just as all the conditions of, salvation are complied with–not an easy matter to determine. Nevertheless any excessive anxiety and disturbance may be allayed (Romans 8:16, 38 sq.) by the subjective conviction that we are probably in the state of grace.
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What the verse refers to is moral certainty, not absolute certainty. If it were saying we can be absolutely certain that we as individuals will be saved it would not be possible for anyone to turn from God’s love and be lost, but we know we can be lost and that many have been.
 
Della said:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Sanctifying Grace A. Uncertainity, last paragraph:

What the verse refers to is moral certainty, not absolute certainty. If it were saying we can be absolutely certain that we as individuals will be saved it would not be possible for anyone to turn from God’s love and be lost, but we know we can be lost and that many have been.
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Isn’t moral certainty the same as absolute certainty, since it’s our souls being judged and sent either to heaven or hell?
 
mrs_abbott said:
Isn’t moral certainty the same as absolute certainty, since it’s our souls being judged and sent either to heaven or hell?
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Moral certainty is what we humans have as we live our lives in God’s grace. Absolute certainty is what we will have only at the moment of our deaths (or when Christ comes again) because up until that point it is possible (although not probable) for us to turn our backs on God.
 
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
Taking this verse with some context John also teaches us that there is a “sin unto death”. This is spiritual death, what Catholics call “mortal sin”. Thus when John talks about having “eternal life” that was his way of saying they were in a state of grace. Remember, John is talking to and warning believers here.

Anyone who believes in Once Saved Always Saved will have trouble explaining a ‘sin unto death’ because such a notion directly contradicts OSAS.

Also note Johns second Letter:4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
-2nd John
 
John 3:15 in the DR

That whsoever believeth in him may not parish, but may have everlasting life.
To me this says it all.

may does not equal will 🙂
 
dcharlesworth said:
Is it possible to know that we are saved, and will have eternal life? I got into this debate with a protestant, and he quoted 1 John 5:13 to me.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I thought it was the Catholic standpoint that no one knows who will have eternal life, until God decides.

Doesn’t this scripture seem to contradict this?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
To have eternal life is to have God abide in you and you abide in God. Eternal life is in the Son. Those who are in Christ and remain in that state partake of the life of God through grace. When a person falls away, what ceases is their participation in this life.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Christ examines your actions and through that, reads your heart. “For I come not to condemn the world, but to save it” Indeed, he could have come with condemnation and destruction, but alowed only the descturction of our sin. More encouraging words have not been spoken.

May His peace be with all of you.
 
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