Knowledge of Sin for others

[vz71]

We can never know whether anyone else’s particular acts constitute “mortal sin”…just our own.

This is a play towards the perfect knowledge of God opposed to the imperfect knowledge man has of a situation.

Be advised though. Once you adopt the idea that you cannot know the mortal sin of another because you cannot have perfect knowledge, the next logical step is denial of your own sin for the same reason.

And that is why this logic does not hold.

We CAN know a sin is mortal. Even those of another.
Now of course it is in only certain specific instances in which this knowledge is there, but it is completely incorrect to claim we cannot know.

For the most part, all you can do is know a sin is present and serious.
Without further information from the sinner, you cannot know much more.
But once the sinner opens their mouth, what they know, when and why can quickly be learned.

 

[dfp42]

FN, as to your comment to your coworker, missing mass is NOT a mortal sin. It is described as “grave matter” in the Catechism…however, since he did not appear to believe he had committed a mortal sin, or even a sin involving “grave matter,” I posit that he in fact did not do so…and you admonition to him was theologically unsound…

…and pretty unwelcoming and hostile too. A coworker says something friendly like, “You’re Catholic? Hey, me too, and same parish even!”…yet you respond (within what sounds like 30 seconds) by telling him he’s is mortal sin (when he probably wasn’t).

Do you think that was witness to Christ’s love for us? Including for your co-worker? Do you think that conversation won’t be repeated to the co-worker’s wife? To her friends?

Catholics are viewed as sin-obsessed and judgmental, and we wonder why.

Missing Mass on Sundays and Holy days of obligation for a Catholic isn’t a mortal sin only grave matter Why do you feel that Catholics are viewed as sin-obsessed and judgmental? Do you mean all Catholics or just the Catholics that talk about sin?

I don’t think this is correct can we call in the synod of bishops to CAF?

 

[PLeeD]

Let me understand.

Assuming I was Catholic; Say there was a wind storm late Saturday night/early Sunday morning, and electric power is lost. Now my alarm clock doesn’t go off in the morning and I miss mass.

Would you say I’m actually in a state of mortal sin that requires confession? Or, can I as a good Catholic recognize that my missing mass was completely unintentional, and assume that I am still in a state of grace without need for confession?

 

[PLeeD]

Oh, and I have to say in response to FNDR’s co-worker story; To engage in that sort of dialogue with a new acquaintance seems counter-productive. I can’t imagine any good coming of it as it was related.

If I was the co-worker, I would be inclined to never speak to FNDR again. I would at least avoid contact as much as possible. I imagine FNDR’s action had no positive results, and did not reflect the love of Christ as much as it reinforced perception of the judgmental nature of some Christians.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

Missing Mass on Sundays and Holy days of obligation for a Catholic isn’t a mortal sin only grave matter

Yes! Grave matter is a prerequisite for mortal sin, but it is not the only one, as has been said. You cannot say that it is a mortal sin without more information about the specific circumstance. You can say that it is objectively sinful, and a sin of grave matter. It could be a mortal sin, but you cannot usually know unless it is your own sin. You can say with certainty that one of the three conditions for mortal sin has been met: it is indeed grave matter.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

Let me understand.

Assuming I was Catholic; Say there was a wind storm late Saturday night/early Sunday morning, and electric power is lost. Now my alarm clock doesn’t go off in the morning and I miss mass.

Would you say I’m actually in a state of mortal sin that requires confession? Or, can I as a good Catholic recognize that my missing mass was completely unintentional, and assume that I am still in a state of grace without need for confession?

I am sure you will get many responses, but the short answer is that you are have not sinned if it truly was accidental. There are valid reasons to miss mass. That is one of them. Also, if you cannot make it because the closest Mass is to far to walk and your car breaks. Or, if there is a bad snowstorm and you just cannot make it. Or, of you are in a place where the closest Mass is prohibitively far away. Or, you are sick. You must always try to go to mass and make it a priority.

 

[dfp42]

Yes! Grave matter is a prerequisite for mortal sin, but it is not the only one, as has been said. You cannot say that it is a mortal sin without more information about the specific circumstance. You can say that it is objectively sinful, and a sin of grave matter. It could be a mortal sin, but you cannot usually know unless it is your own sin. You can say with certainty that one of the three conditions for mortal sin has been met: it is indeed grave matter.

So grave matter really isn’t as bad as a mortal sin? So, it’s kinda like a venial mortal sin but not really a mortal sin because we don’t have knowledge? How does one know though that something is a mortal sin unless someone tells me it is? What I don’t get is why does the Church even mention the word mortal if there technically is no real way of knowing other then to say it may just simply be only grave matter. So new Catholicism teaching is that missing mass on Sundays and Holy days of obligation is grave matter not a mortal sin. I heard Fr Corapi say to a crowd of Catholics that missing mass on Sundays without a good reason was a mortal sin and that it cuts you off from grace. I guess he is wrong since he should of said to the Catholics missing mass could be a mortal sin but its only grave matter.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

So grave matter really isn’t as bad as a mortal sin? So, it’s kinda like a venial mortal sin but not really a mortal sin because we don’t have knowledge? How does one know though that something is a mortal sin unless someone tells me it is? What I don’t get is why does the Church even mention the word mortal if there technically is no real way of knowing other then to say it may just simply be only grave matter. So new Catholicism teaching is that missing mass on Sundays and Holy days of obligation is grave matter not a mortal sin. I heard Fr Corapi say to a crowd of Catholics that missing mass on Sundays without a good reason was a mortal sin and that it cuts you off from grace. I guess he is wrong since he should of said to the Catholics missing mass could be a mortal sin but its only grave matter.

Not quite. If a sin is grave, that means it is a very serious sin. It is deeply wrong. When we talk about mortal sin, we are generally talking about a specific instance of sin. All mortal sins are grave. All grave sins would be mortal if the other two conditions of mortal sin are met. The term grave, in this context, distinguishes the sin by degree. If it is grave, it is really, really bad. The term mortal sin speaks not just to the degree of the sin, but to a person’s culpability for it. That is to say, if you and I commit the same sin, but I know it is wrong and you do not, I am more culpable. The action is not worse, but I will be judged more harshly because I knew better and acted in spite of the knowledge. If it is a sin of grave matter, it necessarily has the potential to be a mortal sin. It is not less serous than a mortal sin. The terms are different because they describe different things. Grave matter describes how bad a sin is objectively. Mortal sin encompasses that, but also encompasses the sinner’s culpability. The difference between grave matter and mortal sin is not the same as the difference between mortal and venial sin. It is not a distinction of degree of separation from God, they are different terms which are used to describe different (though related) things.

The terms are sometimes used interchangeably, when we discuss sins generally. One might say that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass. What they mean by that is that assuming you know it is sinful and you do it anyway, no one forces you to do it, it is a mortal sin. That is, the other two conditions of mortal sin are presumed in place when speaking generally. When you speak specifically, you have to be more precise. I can say it is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday. I cannot say, “Paul committed a mortal sin when he missed mass on Sunday.” I do know that assuming the other conditions for mortal sin being met, it is a mortal sin. I do not know whether or not Paul is mindful of the sin. (Paul is not meant to represent anyone in particular, just a name. Sorry if there are any Pauls reading.)

 

[FNDRB58]

Oh, and I have to say in response to FNDR’s co-worker story; To engage in that sort of dialogue with a new acquaintance seems counter-productive. I can’t imagine any good coming of it as it was related.

If I was the co-worker, I would be inclined to never speak to FNDR again. I would at least avoid contact as much as possible. I imagine FNDR’s action had no positive results, and did not reflect the love of Christ as much as it reinforced perception of the judgmental nature of some Christians.

We do not let someone act out of ignorance. It is our duty to inform them if they don’t realize they are engaging in mortally sinful actions. This is the love the bible speaks of when it tells us to correct our neighbor. My coworker said he didn’t know that missing Mass was a mortal sin. Now if he actually cared he would be very happy he was informed of this for the sake of his soul. Wouldn’t any of us? As it turns out he doesn’t care. He is still responsible now for the evil that he is perpertuating on his soul. If my coworker hated me for lovingly informing him of this then he is the one with the problem, wouldn’t you say?

Also, we all know that so many go to communion who shouldn’t be. The reverence for the Real Presence is often neglected and I feel that this is an added benefit to informing someone of the Canon Law on this matter.

 

[FNDRB58]

Let me understand.

Assuming I was Catholic; Say there was a wind storm late Saturday night/early Sunday morning, and electric power is lost. Now my alarm clock doesn’t go off in the morning and I miss mass.

Would you say I’m actually in a state of mortal sin that requires confession? Or, can I as a good Catholic recognize that my missing mass was completely unintentional, and assume that I am still in a state of grace without need for confession?

Your last paragraph is correct. One must meet the criterion for committing a mortal sin to be culpable. In this case you would not have to confess the sin as no sin occurred. The Catholic faith is a faith of common sense also.

 

[FNDRB58]

Yes! Grave matter is a prerequisite for mortal sin, but it is not the only one, as has been said. You cannot say that it is a mortal sin without more information about the specific circumstance. You can say that it is objectively sinful, and a sin of grave matter. It could be a mortal sin, but you cannot usually know unless it is your own sin. You can say with certainty that one of the three conditions for mortal sin has been met: it is indeed grave matter.

The Catechism, the Canon, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and even in Catholic Answers tracts, use the term *mortal sin *most often in the objective context. It is most often used when there is the connotation that all the conditions are met. If the conditions weren’t met then the term *mortal sin *would not apply and therefore not be used.

To say mortal sin means mortal sin (all conditions are met). Mortal sin would not be so otherwise.

This is why I have brought up many times the bible verse, 1 Corinthians 6:19!

Paul speaks to the fact that murder, fornicators, theives, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Now Paul **did not qualify the requirements, ergo, the subjective context, **when he said this. So Beth and others would be saying to Paul what is being said to me…that…“No, they are not mortal sins or “always” mortal sins if …”
But those who heard Paul understood that he meant deliberate commission of these acts.

We can also look at the Ten Commandments. There are no conditional reminders there either. One states, “You shall not commit murder.” You would then ask well “What if…”
Sure you can ask and should ask if you are unsure about your state but the Ten Commandments infer that you you are guilty if you commit murder. We don’t have to keep mentioning the three conditions when we speak in the objective context.

So to say, “Missing Mass is a mortal sin” is accurate because it is being used in the same context as Paul when he said that xyz sins are damning (mortal).

Just a refresher pasted from the Catechism:

*A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28–29). Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10 and Gal. 5:19–21). For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church. *

You can see that the term mortal sin in the paragraph above is used both with an explanation of the requirements for it to be met AND it uses **mortal sins **to describe the sins in the verses shown, with no requirements mentioned (their implied).

I hope this clears things up.

 

[FNDRB58]

So grave matter really isn’t as bad as a mortal sin? So, it’s kinda like a venial mortal sin but not really a mortal sin because we don’t have knowledge? How does one know though that something is a mortal sin unless someone tells me it is? What I don’t get is why does the Church even mention the word mortal if there technically is no real way of knowing other then to say it may just simply be only grave matter. So new Catholicism teaching is that missing mass on Sundays and Holy days of obligation is grave matter not a mortal sin. I heard Fr Corapi say to a crowd of Catholics that missing mass on Sundays without a good reason was a mortal sin and that it cuts you off from grace. I guess he is wrong since he should of said to the Catholics missing mass could be a mortal sin but its only grave matter.

You can know from the natural law God instills in each of us, i.e. murder…we know inately that this is instrinsically evil. Also, you can know from the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. That’s why Jesus put someone in charge (Peter) and the Apostles (Bishops) and their successors and theologians, etc. Read the Bible, the Catechism, and other books about the subject. And don’t forget that you can do a search for “mortal sin” on the main page of this site!!! You will find many tracts on mortal sin.

 

[FNDRB58]

If it is a sin of grave matter, it necessarily has the potential to be a mortal sin. It is not less serious than a mortal sin.

Although I think I understand what you are trying to say here technically, it is inaccurate.

A sin of grave matter is in limbo until it is determined whether it fits into the moral or venial category. You can’t say that grave matter is not less serious than a mortal sin since it has yet to be elevated to such by the inclusion of the other two requirements.

The better way of saying it is that grave sin is necessary for a sin to be mortal and the same grave sin may not be mortal.

 

[FNDRB58]

This is why I have brought up many times the bible verse, 1 Corinthians 6:19!

Typo. I meant 6:9.

 

[FNDRB58]

Where’d everyone go? I couldn’t have convinced everyone who disagreed with me. I am not THAT GOOD!