Knowledge of Sin for others

[FNDRB58]

I will touch only on a few points:

What you have said is true, as far as it goes, but it does not define Mortal sin. For a sin to be mortal it must be grave- which is what you seem to be talking about in your posts. Sins like fornication, murder etc., are grave. You cannot, however, say that they are mortal generally. Mortal sin depends on circumstance.

I wasn’t asked of the requirements. I was asked to define what it means. We all are aware of the three requirements.

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.”[132] The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

I would question whether the Ten Commandments are all mortal sins. The bible states that if anyone commits the least of these then they will be considered lesser in the Kingdom of Heaven. This sounds like they will still be in heaven if they had committed the least sin therefore the sin was not mortal otherwise they would not be in heaven. This is just a side note. I am not making any definitive argument regarding this passage. Its just a question I would have for an apologist, priest, or scripture scholar.

But, to say that because you tell a person that a thing is sinful, they therefore know that it is sinful is not simply true.

Never said so. Not sure where you got this impression. Our duty is to instruct them. The ball is in their court. Our holy action is complete.

The mind is too complicated to assign such a simple formula for knowledge. Even if you cite the authority of the Church, if they do not understand why the Church ought to be given such authority than your message is undermined as opinion. It has been said that if you say a thing, citing proper authority, than they are culpable. This may be true in many (perhaps most) cases, but cannot be true in all cases. Rejecting a truth that you know is sinful. Rejecting a truth that you have never understood is not. If they do not understand from whence comes the authority of the Church, than you cannot hold them accountable for not accepting that authority. Then your task changes to teaching about who we are and why the authority of the Church is authoritative, even when we do not understand.

I don’t believe I said that if you tell them then they are culpable. I will have to check, if I did then I mistated. What I meant to say was that if you tell them then it is up to them to take whatever action moves them. Perhaps,* responsible *would be the correct word.

In no case is it your job to determine the culpability of your friend. That is the judgement that we leave for God. Judging an action to be sinful is different, and we must do that. Telling a friend that an action is sinful is also not judging them, and it is necessary. Leave the worry of whether or not a given action of your friend is mortal to God. He alone can make that determination, and indeed, He alone has use for the knowledge. What would you do differently if you knew? You still must teach about sin either way. You still love him either way. You still pray for him either way.

I never said that I determine culpability. I don’t know where you got this information. I agree with everything else in this paragraph though. However, (and this seems to be lost in others understanding) we can objectively say to someone that to miss can be a mortal sin. We don’t have to qualify whether the person meets the requirements. That is left to him and God. We instructed him which is what we should do. It is not important only that my friend does not commit a grave sin, it is also important to me that my friend does not commit a mortal sin. So, I would disagree with you that we should not worry that our brother commits what could be a mortal sin because we love him and want salvation for him.

 

[FNDRB58]

“2. There is no comprehensive list and I never said there was. What I did say was that there was a list: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. These sins would certainly be considered mortal if they precluded one from heaven.”

–No, there is NO list of mortal sins, anywhere in the Bible or the Catechism.

Simply stating “NO” is not a very convincing argument. Please tell me why you don’t think that the list (repetitive words separated by commas) in 1 Corinthians 6 does not qualify as describing mortal sins? I have asked you many times to intpret this verse for me to no avail.

Paul described these sins as damning. He did not qualify the circumstances there might be if someone commits them. He is speaking objectively. We are to presume that all requirements for that sin are there. If it is a mortal sin then it is a given that all the conditions are met. The word means what it connotes.

The Catholic Church NEVER says any particular act is a mortal sin, b/c such mortal sin requires “full consent of the will.” Only God knows that. Because we can never know the state of anyone’s consent, we can never declare any particular act to be a mortal sin.

–As to each of Paul’s listed acts, any such act can be undertaken under fear, coercion, undue influence, etc., any of which defeats “full consent of the will.”

Then what did he mean? Would you wage the same argument with Paul as you are with me? Don’t you understand what he means here?

The worst that can be stated is that some acts constitute “grave matter,” but grave acts need not equal mortal sins.

–If you were correct, the Catechism could/would hold up Paul’s list and state unequivocally, “these are always mortal sins!” It does not. By negative implication…they are not always mortal.

You are confusing *informing *with imputing. The Church does not impute sin on a person’s soul - only God does. But the Church can retain those sins. The Church can also tell someone that to be in the state of mortal sin one must meet three requirements. They can also say that if you meet those requirements then your are indeed in the state of mortal sin and in need of repentance. The Church would tell you not to go to communion untiil you are reconciled with the Church. Remember the Church is informing the penitent of his state acting on behalf of God. “Who hears you hears Me”, “bind and loose”. The Church is not imputing but informing.

–Look at the passage before 1 Corinthians 6:9: Paul condemns those in lawsuits. If you were correct - and you are not - being a plaintiff in a lawsuit now would be equally immoral. Since the Church does not teach us, “never sue anyone,” it follows that Paul’s statements are not a blanket overview of who is going to heaven & who isn’t.

You quoted the wrong verse. It does not speak to lawsuits. Oops, I guess in your zeal you made a mistake too. We’re even now.

I don’t have the time to respond to multiple posters as this is taking up much time. From here on out I will continue my dialogue with Von. If others have a short question or comment that doesn’t require a lengthy answer then I will consider responding.

Thanks!

 

[VonDerTann]

FN, it’s good to know you will “consider” responding to others but that I clearly have your attention. I find that rather amusing.

“Please tell me why you don’t think that the list (repetitive words separated by commas) in 1 Corinthians 6 does not qualify as describing mortal sins? I have asked you many times to intpret this verse for me to no avail.”

–I’ve given you my answer, in several parts. The fact that you don’t like it doesn’t mean I’ve not answered.

–The Church simply does not state that Paul’s listed acts are “always mortal sins.” You can claim otherwise…but you’d be doing so without support. You’d be offering your opinion, but not the position of the Catholic Church…which simply never says abortion,drunkenness, etc., whatever are always mortal sins.

"Paul described these sins as damning. He did not qualify the circumstances there might be if someone commits them. He is speaking objectively. We are to presume that all requirements for that sin are there. If it is a mortal sin then it is a given that all the conditions are met. The word means what it connotes.
–Why are we to presume this?
–Actually, he did qualify the statements, in that his meaning may not be as clear as you suggest. For example, the commentary to my Bible states that the “fornication” Paul was referring to was religious prostitution common in pagan cultures.

As to my “lawsuit” argument, you know what I meant. Being snarky doesn’t pass for not answering substantively.

Finally, you said this elsewhere:

“There is a subtle difference between mortal sin and grave sin.”
–You are making up “grave sin.” There is “grave matter,” which is an aspect of mortal sin in the Catechism.

“The bible speaks to the fact that some sins make one unrighteous before God and inhibit one from inheriting the Kingdom of God. This is what the Church defines as mortal sin.”
–No, you have not proven this…the Church (as opposed to St. Paul) says what makes up mortal sin, but never says what acts constitute such sins.

“Grave sin becomes mortal sin if the three requirements exist.”
–False. Grave matter is one of the elements of mortal sin. Once again, there is no “grave sin and mortal sin,” only “venial sin and mortal sin.”

“Only the penitent and God can answer those questions.”
–This seems to suggest that “the penitent” can decide what acts are mortal sins…and only God can do that. Or are you able to decide who’s penitent?

…Wait, don’t answer. If…after all these posts, I am still having to explain “grave matter” to you, there’s really no point going on. I said a while back we would “agree to disagree,” and left…to come back and find I was being trashed and accused of not being Catholic. So forget it, pal, debate’s over – unless the insults continue, in which case you’re just going to make a fool of yourself.

 

[dfp42]

…Wait, don’t answer. If…after all these posts, I am still having to explain “grave matter” to you, there’s really no point going on. I said a while back we would “agree to disagree,” and left…to come back and find I was being trashed and accused of not being Catholic. So forget it, pal, debate’s over – unless the insults continue, in which case you’re just going to make a fool of yourself.

Why this type of attitude though man? We are your brothers in Christ but yet fools to you? Sure you may disagree but honestly I asked a simple question in which honestly I regret doing because between both of you, there is no right or wrong answer and it’s obvious you are fighting with him and not debating at this point. Perhaps I should go speak to my priest or better yet my bishop to find out what a mortal sin is instead of coming on CAF getting opinions.

it seems nobody disagrees with Catholics more than Catholics do amongst themselves over the same faith

 

[FNDRB58]

FN, it’s good to know you will “consider” responding to others but that I clearly have your attention. I find that rather amusing.

“Please tell me why you don’t think that the list (repetitive words separated by commas) in 1 Corinthians 6 does not qualify as describing mortal sins? I have asked you many times to intpret this verse for me to no avail.”

–I’ve given you my answer, in several parts. The fact that you don’t like it doesn’t mean I’ve not answered.

–The Church simply does not state that Paul’s listed acts are “always mortal sins.” You can claim otherwise…but you’d be doing so without support. You’d be offering your opinion, but not the position of the Catholic Church…which simply never says abortion,drunkenness, etc., whatever are always mortal sins.

That verse did not mention abortion nor drunkenness…let’s at least quote the verse properly instead of adding things to it.

What Paul is implying, and perhaps this will get make sense to you, is that those that are mortal sins they are mortal. Does this help? He is not putting conditions on whether those sins have to go through the requirement test. **It is implied that if one commits a sin that deserves damnation then obviously they fulfilled all the requirements to be culpable for that sin! **

“There is a subtle difference between mortal sin and grave sin.”
–You are making up “grave sin.” There is “grave matter,” which is an aspect of mortal sin in the Catechism.

That is correct, I meant grave matter not grave sin. This changes nothing in my arguments but thank you for noting this. Now let’s see if you can get past this minor fauxpas in verbage instead of holding it against me.

Back to the issues…

“The bible speaks to the fact that some sins make one unrighteous before God and inhibit one from inheriting the Kingdom of God. This is what the Church defines as mortal sin.”
–No, you have not proven this…the Church (as opposed to St. Paul) says what makes up mortal sin, but never says what acts constitute such sins.

What is to prove?. The bible says it! Please explain why you think Paul’s admonition to those who commit such acts would go to hell is not proof that these acts are mortal in nature?

“Only the penitent and God can answer those questions.”
–This seems to suggest that “the penitent” can decide what acts are mortal sins…and only God can do that. Or are you able to decide who’s penitent?

If a penitent is unsure of his state then he can seek advice from a priest. Otherwise he can make an examination of conscience and come up with the answer that he is indeed in the state of mortal sin. Remember now, he is not imputing the sin on himself but he recognizes that he is in the state of mortal sin by what he has been taught by the Church. Why am I having to explain Catholic teaching to you? You should know all of this.

…Wait, don’t answer. If…after all these posts, I am still having to explain “grave matter” to you, there’s really no point going on. I said a while back we would “agree to disagree,” and left…to come back and find I was being trashed and accused of not being Catholic. So forget it, pal, debate’s over – unless the insults continue, in which case you’re just going to make a fool of yourself.

Not one insult has been leashed on you. You are just sensitive and can’t handle debating someone who disagrees with you. Telling someone that I think they might be Protestant based on what I believe to be their bible-only teaching and suggesting that forum may not be the best for them to debate are not insults. If you overcome this sensitivity issue you have then I am sure you will get much more out of debating.

I understand grave matter. Replace grave matter where I spoke of grave sin and nothing changes. Matter is what I meant and you know it. “In my zeal” I did not pay attention. But you tend to hark on little mistakes that have virtually no bearing on the arguments I have put forth.

I have explained at ignosium the Church’s teaching. I would suggest you seek information from someone whom you trust and feel is more credible than me. I am sure you will find that what I am conveying to you is accurate. Good luck!

 

[FNDRB58]

Why this type of attitude though man? We are your brothers in Christ but yet fools to you? Sure you may disagree but honestly I asked a simple question in which honestly I regret doing because between both of you, there is no right or wrong answer and it’s obvious you are fighting with him and not debating at this point. Perhaps I should go speak to my priest or better yet my bishop to find out what a mortal sin is instead of coming on CAF getting opinions.

it seems nobody disagrees with Catholics more than Catholics do amongst themselves over the same faith

Unfortunately, forums are open to the public and questions posted often take on a life of their own when erroneous information is thought to be posted. We get Protestants, agnostics, atheists, and some who come here just to dispute Catholic teaching. One or more have made it onto this thread also. Some of us feel the need to correct those who are in error. The worst that this thread is is that it is spirited. The anger has been one-sided and misdirected for sure but this is to be expected when some are not equipped “to handle the truth” so to speak. There have been no bad words or anything. We just have a side who gets upset easily.

I honestly don’t know why you posted here. Instead you should post this type of question in the “Ask an Apologist” section. I find that sending them a private message may get an answer faster but it is your choice.

There is nothing wrong with disagreement. It is the way the truth comes out. The problem is in how both parties express themselves. And my opponent gets charged up pretty easily. There is nothing to regret. No sins have been committed here. I am enjoying this discussion. I just wish my comments would be understood and my opponent would give clear concise responses to my questions and not get in such a huff over nothing.

 

[FNDRB58]

Read this post. You will see that Father Serpa is saying that someone IS IN the state of mortal sin.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234454&highlight=grave+sin

Now using Von’s argumentation, Father Serpa has no right to tell him this because it is only God who can tell someone this. Does the Church not tell us that one may not come up for communion while in the state of mortal sin? Von would say that only God can say that.

 

[dfp42]

I see. Thank you for clearing this up FNDRB58. God Bless and Thanks

 

[FNDRB58]

Mortal Sin…as taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The gravity of the matter is* judged from the teaching of Scripture, the definitions of councils and popes, and also from reason. Those sins are judged to be mortal which contain in themselves some grave disorder in regard to God, our neighbour, ourselves, or society. Some sins admit of no lightness of matter, as for example, blasphemy, hatred of God; they are always mortal **(ex toto genere suo), unless rendered venial by want of full advertence on the part of the intellect or full consent on the part of the will. Other sins admit lightness of matter: they are grave sins (ex genere suo) in as much as their matter in itself is sufficient to constitute a **grave sin **without the addition of any other matter, but is of such a nature that in a given case, owing to its smallness, the sin may be venial, e.g. theft. *

Woh, grave sin is even mentioned!

Catholic Answers tract:
*
A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28–29). **Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10 and Gal. 5:19–21). *For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There are your lists…hey there is a second one there and it includes abortion which you mentioned?

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

This has been the most frustrating discussion of any I have yet seen on these boards. It seems to me that there is no disagreement. This is bickering, plain and simple. If you read posts generously, with an intent to understand and assuming the best rather than the worst of other posters, this kind of deterioration would not happen.

In my last post I was unclear. I only intended the few sentences after the quoted text to respond to that quote. After than, I responded generally to the discussion. Unfortunately, my lack of clarity caused a poster to think that I was attributing opinions to him which he has not stated. I am sorry. It is, however, a clear example of reading generously. If you agree with what a person has written, you do not need to fuss that you never said otherwise. To do so is to make the conversation about you, rather than the topic at hand. This comment is not meant to be pointed, as it seems to me that it is too common to call out any one person. Say what you want to say. If you agree, say you agree. When you disagree, say you disagree and explain why. If you think you agree, but perhaps the post was not entirely clear to you, post a clarification of what you think it says.

Again, it seems that there is very little, if any, actual disagreement in this frustrating back and forth. We can agree that missing Mass is grave matter. We can agree that if our friends are missing Mass we have an obligation to inform them of that fact. We can agree that, since we are obviously aware of this obligation, if we miss Mass, uncoerced, we commit a Mortal sin. We agree that judging whether or not our friend has committed a mortal sin by missing Mass is judging his culpability, which we cannot do. Not we should not do it; we cannot do it because we are not privy to all the necessary information. We agree about the difference between grave matter and mortal sin: one is observably and we can and must make judgements regarding it, the other is subject to context which we can rarely know and thus we cannot judge.

The original post posed a lot of interesting questions, though it was short. Even the title could spark a debate. “Knowledge of sin for others.” Can we know other people’s sins? In many cases, yes we can. In the case specifically mentioned, yes, he can know that his friend was sinning. Missing Mass is sinful. As has been said, repeatedly and by almost everyone here, it is only mortal if all three conditions are met, and you cannot know if they are. So you cannot know if he has sinned mortally.

 

[FNDRB58]

Unfortunately you and I are the only ones who agree. Von does not.

Regarding mortal sin…We agree that despite not knowing a persons heart we may out of love still inform him of a sin he is committing. But what if you know the conditions are met Beth? Could you not then inform the person that he is in the state of mortal sin…not imputing it …just informing the person? Yes. And that is the point I am trying to make to Von to which he disagrees.

 

[dfp42]

Make that 3 that agree. I think…

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

I don’t see how you could possibly know that the conditions are met, in most cases. You know with regard to yourself, of course. Those very close to you may know your heart if you have made them your confidants. Your confessor has a better chance of knowing than most. But realistically you cannot usually know the mind or heart of another person, or the circumstance of their specific sins, and you must to be able to judge his culpability- and that is what you are doing when you say he has sinned mortally rather than saying the sin he has committed is grave. I will leave a little wiggle room, but not much.

I stand by my earlier claim as well, that the difference does not change my actions and thus it is not necessary knowledge for me. I do not need to know whether a person has sinned mortally or not to know that I must admonish the sin. My actions toward that person are the same either way. He needs to be informed and taught if possible. He needs to be loved. He needs my prayer. Why should I worry whether he has sinned mortally when I know he has committed a sin which is grave? I can address the problem without the judgment of which I am unlikely to be capable.

Obviously you think Von disagrees, but I wish you would allow him to speak for himself.

 

[VonDerTann]

We can never know whether anyone else’s particular acts constitute “mortal sin”…just our own.

Even if someone says to us outright, “I just committed a mortal sin, by commiting a grave act with full knowledge!”…they could be messed up, or overly scrupulous, etc., or lying.

So what’s the point?

…And for that matter, why would we want to know if they were in mortal sin? To correct them?To make ourselves feel righteous? Wouldn’t it be better to worry about our own souls, first?

FN, you’ve gotten so far afield from the OP that I can’t really figure out what you’re really trying to say. You keep saying how I need to be less sensitive, how you’ve not insulted me, etc…yet it clearly seems very important to you that you keep answering me, to your stated exclusion of others, demanding answers from me over and over, etc. I don’t know why my posts are so important to you, as if you are trying to score points. Once again…you are not going to convince me you are right, or knowledgeable about this, and that seems to bother you immensely. I am not going to convince you as to my position,so I’m left to be amused.

 

[FNDRB58]

I don’t see how you could possibly know that the conditions are met, in most cases. You know with regard to yourself, of course. Those very close to you may know your heart if you have made them your confidants. Your confessor has a better chance of knowing than most. But realistically you cannot usually know the mind or heart of another person, or the circumstance of their specific sins, and you must to be able to judge his culpability- and that is what you are doing when you say he has sinned mortally rather than saying the sin he has committed is grave. I will leave a little wiggle room, but not much.

I stand by my earlier claim as well, that the difference does not change my actions and thus it is not necessary knowledge for me. I do not need to know whether a person has sinned mortally or not to know that I must admonish the sin. My actions toward that person are the same either way. He needs to be informed and taught if possible. He needs to be loved. He needs my prayer. Why should I worry whether he has sinned mortally when I know he has committed a sin which is grave? I can address the problem without the judgment of which I am unlikely to be capable.

Obviously you think Von disagrees, but I wish you would allow him to speak for himself.

Are you serious? What have you been reading?

I will tell you a true story…

I was at a new job for about a month or two. A coworker knew that I was a Catholic. He told me that he was also Catholic and said that he goes to the same parish as me. He then said that his wife was Catholic and wanted him to go through the RCIA program prior to marriage, which he did. He told me he doesn’t go to Church every Sunday. I asked him if he goes to communion when he does attend Mass. He said yes. I told him, “Do you know that missing Mass is a mortal sin? He said no. I was surprised since he attended the RCIA classes. I then told him that he shouldn’t receive the Eucharist until he goes to confession for missing Mass?” He said, “No, I am going to keep going to communion.” I asked him if he is concerned about his soul. He said, “No, I don’t care.” I am going to keep going."

Now, though he doesn’t care, he is culpable for his actions. He has been equipped to know the truth. He just doesn’t care. One could say based on his comments that he is in the state of mortal sin and in need of repentance.

 

[FNDRB58]

We can never know whether anyone else’s particular acts constitute “mortal sin”…just our own.

Even if someone says to us outright, “I just committed a mortal sin, by commiting a grave act with full knowledge!”…they could be messed up, or overly scrupulous, etc., or lying.

So what’s the point?

…And for that matter, why would we want to know if they were in mortal sin? To correct them?To make ourselves feel righteous? Wouldn’t it be better to worry about our own souls, first?

FN, you’ve gotten so far afield from the OP that I can’t really figure out what you’re really trying to say. You keep saying how I need to be less sensitive, how you’ve not insulted me, etc…yet it clearly seems very important to you that you keep answering me, to your stated exclusion of others, demanding answers from me over and over, etc. I don’t know why my posts are so important to you, as if you are trying to score points. Once again…you are not going to convince me you are right, or knowledgeable about this, and that seems to bother you immensely. I am not going to convince you as to my position,so I’m left to be amused.

Very hypocritical. Why do you continue to bicker? Can’t you stay focused and comment on the issue in this debate? You have avoided the many questions I have posed to you. Did you read my previous pastes with all the information that you need to agree with me. I quoted the Canon and the Catholic Encylopedia. No comments?

 

[VonDerTann]

Now I’m “hypocitical,” and not just run of the mill hypocritical, but “very” hypocritical.

I forgot, FN – no namecalling by you, oh no.

I keep being accused of not answering questions…as if there were any and they were deserving of answers (I gave them when they were).

At this point, FN, you are not just beating a dead horse…you are flailing at the ground where the chalk outline of the horse used to be.

We don’t agree and you’ve not convinced me. Get over it.

 

[VonDerTann]

FN, as to your comment to your coworker, missing mass is NOT a mortal sin. It is described as “grave matter” in the Catechism…however, since he did not appear to believe he had committed a mortal sin, or even a sin involving “grave matter,” I posit that he in fact did not do so…and you admonition to him was theologically unsound…

…and pretty unwelcoming and hostile too. A coworker says something friendly like, “You’re Catholic? Hey, me too, and same parish even!”…yet you respond (within what sounds like 30 seconds) by telling him he’s is mortal sin (when he probably wasn’t).

Do you think that was witness to Christ’s love for us? Including for your co-worker? Do you think that conversation won’t be repeated to the co-worker’s wife? To her friends?

Catholics are viewed as sin-obsessed and judgmental, and we wonder why.

 

[vz71]

Read this post. You will see that Father Serpa is saying that someone IS IN the state of mortal sin.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234454&highlight=grave+sin

No, he does not.
He explains what a mortal sin is, explains why the individual may be in mortal sin, and explains that if they want to know if the specific sin they are guilty of is mortal they should send to his email privately.

 

[vz71]

I don’t see how you could possibly know that the conditions are met, in most cases.

You can know if the conditions for a mortal sin are met if the person tells you they are.

Is it really so unrealistic to believe someone would say “yeah, I know it is really wrong, but I love them…”??

Actually, Io have a better example then that from relatives that do not attend Mass…
“Yeah, it is considered a mortal sin. I guess I am just not a good Catholic, but I am not going to go every week.”