Kristalnacht in America?

[Muzhik]

Shalom. I wanted to ask something that has been fighting its way to the forefront of my mind for the last week. A bit of background:

Recently I listened to an Israel National Radio show (“Light Unto Nations”) where one of the hosts was making a speaking tour of the US. He spoke of how he did a presentation at a synagogue about Israel and the importance of making alilyah. (In case you don’t know, “aliyah” is the return of Jews from where ever they are living to Israel.) This lecture was part of a weekly lecture series the rabbi had been holding, which had never drawn more than 20 people. When this guy came to speak, **120 **people showed up. But that’s not what amazed the rabbi. He wasn’t even amazed that at least half the crowd was Christian. He was amazed that when the speaker said it was vital for Jews to make aliyah, ALL the Christians in the room replied with a resounding YES! As the speaker put it, obviously the Christians were aware of something in America that the Jews were ignoring.

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.

(“Kristallnacht”, BTW, was an orgy of violence, rioting, and looting, targeted at synagogues, Jewish businesses and homes, that occurred in Germany on Nov. 9-10, 1938. It’s generally considered the beginning of the Holocaust.)

<><

 

[ralphinal]

Shalom. I wanted to ask something that has been fighting its way to the forefront of my mind for the last week. A bit of background:

Recently I listened to an Israel National Radio show (“Light Unto Nations”) where one of the hosts was making a speaking tour of the US. He spoke of how he did a presentation at a synagogue about Israel and the importance of making alilyah. (In case you don’t know, “aliyah” is the return of Jews from where ever they are living to Israel.) This lecture was part of a weekly lecture series the rabbi had been holding, which had never drawn more than 20 people. When this guy came to speak, **120 **people showed up. But that’s not what amazed the rabbi. He wasn’t even amazed that at least half the crowd was Christian. He was amazed that when the speaker said it was vital for Jews to make aliyah, ALL the Christians in the room replied with a resounding YES! As the speaker put it, obviously the Christians were aware of something in America that the Jews were ignoring.

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.

(“Kristallnacht”, BTW, was an orgy of violence, rioting, and looting, targeted at synagogues, Jewish businesses and homes, that occurred in Germany on Nov. 9-10, 1938. It’s generally considered the beginning of the Holocaust.)

<><

I don’t see it happening here for several reasons. First, these “Christians” might be from the denominations that teach that once all the Jews “go home” and rebuild the temple, Jesus will return. This idea is not common in most Christian Churches. Second, Americans as a whole are too lazy to get off the couch to have an orgy of violence. Nope. Not going to happen. Third, we have no systematic method of identifying Jewish holdings in America. Yes, places of worship, but not homes and businesses. I would love to know where this was and what denomination these Christians were.

 

[ibkc]

I have encountered far more anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe than anywhere in the US, and I would be gobsmacked to even think of something like Kristalnacht happening here.

 

[rtconstant]

I think is this case the speaker might have misunderstood the intent of the Christians in the group. They were likely evangelicals who follow the idea that the establishment of the state of Israel is prophesy fulfilled, and when the Jews head back to Isreal the chain of events that will lead to Christ’s return will happen.

I don’t think they were many “get out of America” I believe they were just agreeing that it is imperitive that the Jews return to Israel. They were likely agreeing completely with the speaker though for totally different theological reasons.

I could be wrong as I was not there, but I think this is the most likely reason.

 

[Muzhik]

I think is this case the speaker might have misunderstood the intent of the Christians in the group. They were likely evangelicals who follow the idea that the establishment of the state of Israel is prophesy fulfilled, and when the Jews head back to Israel the chain of events that will lead to Christ’s return will happen.

I don’t think they were many “get out of America” I believe they were just agreeing that it is imperitive that the Jews return to Israel. They were likely agreeing completely with the speaker though for totally different theological reasons.

I could be wrong as I was not there, but I think this is the most likely reason.

Let me clarify:

1. The speaker was an American Jew who made aliyah to Israel many years ago.
2. He was speaking at a synagogue at a lecture series arranged by a rabbi, on topics of interest to the Jewish world.
3. The speaker’s main point was to encourage American Jews to make aliyah, which many are unwilling to do because they are comfortable here.
4. The Christians in the crowd were people who had come to the lecture “to bless Israel.” They were not there to drive the Jews out of town, but to show support for Israel.
5. Because they are comfortable in America, the Jews in the crowd were not open to the idea of aliyah, except as a sentimental reason, maybe to do after retirement, etc.
6. The Christians in the crowd, on the other hand, sense that America is changing, and the Jews need to “get out of Dodge” while they still can.

Granted, America is not 1930s Germany, where religious affiliation was immediately evident by your name, by your dress, or by your occupation. America is also not a country where the majority of people live within walking distance of work or over their store, etc. So, yes, it would be more difficult to target businesses where there is a majority Jewish ownership. More difficult, yes, but not impossible. Where I live (in small-town Midwest with a large German-Dutch population) religious affiliation can’t always be determined by name: “Steinman” could be German, Dutch, or Jewish.

In places like Southern California, on the other hand, that’s not necessarily the case. By going to Jewish Charity events and finding out who is attending and who is serving on the charity’s board, you could start developing a list of prominent Jewish businessmen-and-women. Casing synagogues and Jewish centers helps you build your list. Within a year you have a significant list of businesses and persons to target. Then during a time of chaos such as after an earthquake or during a riot, when the police are already overloaded, you execute your plan. Your people strike at Jewish businesses – who’s to say it’s not part of the riot – and do home invasions on the Jews you’ve targeted. How soon do you think it would be (if ever) that someone would draw the connection that Jews were being targeted? Burn down a few synagogues during the crisis and you’ve got your Kristalnacht.

And before you think I’m too much of a conspiracy theorist, please read this letter about what happened at a dinner to honor a Jewish woman who had dedicated several years of her life to a charity that worked with African Americans to prevent child abuse and neglect. Consider what Rev. Eric Lee, pres. and CEO of Southern Christian Leadership Conference of Greater Los Angeles said in his speech to honor this woman. Consider that NO ONE who was there from the mayor’s office, from the state assembly, NO ONE objected to what the Rev. was saying.

Now compare what the Rev. was saying to what Rev. Wright said in his sermons about what the white man has done to keep the black man down, and consider how short a jump it would be to start blaming the Jewish bankers who are financing the black man’s slavery.

And NO ONE says anything.

So, yes, I have to wonder: How much longer before America’s Kristallnacht?

<><

 

[ralphinal]

1. The Christians in the crowd were people who had come to the lecture “to bless Israel.” They were not there to drive the Jews out of town, but to show support for Israel.

1. Because they are comfortable in America, the Jews in the crowd were not open to the idea of aliyah, except as a sentimental reason, maybe to do after retirement, etc.

1. The Christians in the crowd, on the other hand, sense that America is changing, and the Jews need to “get out of Dodge” while they still can.

There is a leap from 4 to 6 that I am missing.

Anyway, one reason the goofballs that you listed in America are ignored is because they are goofballs without fame. Hilton sister, et al, are goofballs with fame and we pay more attention to them.

I was in New York in March. I stayed at a hotel that hosted a fund-raising dinner for a pro-Isreal cause. There were protesters across the street yelling all kinds of vile things and holding up signs that were totally goofy. Some of the protesters were “Hasidic Jews against Isreal.” Anyway, the attendees outnumbered the protesters by about 2 to 1.

I do not think that modern Isreal is the Isreal of the Bible. I do not think that there is any significance theologically to Isreal. Some Christians do.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**He was amazed that when the speaker said it was vital for Jews to make aliyah, ALL the Christians in the room replied with a resounding YES! As the speaker put it, obviously the Christians were aware of something in America that the Jews were ignoring.

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.**

**Dispensationalist pop-evangelicals who don’t really understand the Bible (though they might be able to quote dozens of verses) think that that patch of real estate in the Middle East called “Israel” is the Israel of prophecy and is God’s pet country. It’s neither. At bestt, it’s the last great push of European colonialism.

Next, while there have always been short, localized bursts of violence (such as the shooting in a Jewish community center a few years ago), I really doubt we will see anything similar to Cristallnacht in America.**

 

[rtconstant]

Let me clarify:

1. The speaker was an American Jew who made aliyah to Israel many years ago.
2. He was speaking at a synagogue at a lecture series arranged by a rabbi, on topics of interest to the Jewish world.
3. The speaker’s main point was to encourage American Jews to make aliyah, which many are unwilling to do because they are comfortable here.
4. The Christians in the crowd were people who had come to the lecture “to bless Israel.” They were not there to drive the Jews out of town, but to show support for Israel.
5. Because they are comfortable in America, the Jews in the crowd were not open to the idea of aliyah, except as a sentimental reason, maybe to do after retirement, etc.
6. The Christians in the crowd, on the other hand, sense that America is changing, and the Jews need to “get out of Dodge” while they still can.

Granted, America is not 1930s Germany, where religious affiliation was immediately evident by your name, by your dress, or by your occupation. America is also not a country where the majority of people live within walking distance of work or over their store, etc. So, yes, it would be more difficult to target businesses where there is a majority Jewish ownership. More difficult, yes, but not impossible. Where I live (in small-town Midwest with a large German-Dutch population) religious affiliation can’t always be determined by name: “Steinman” could be German, Dutch, or Jewish.

In places like Southern California, on the other hand, that’s not necessarily the case. By going to Jewish Charity events and finding out who is attending and who is serving on the charity’s board, you could start developing a list of prominent Jewish businessmen-and-women. Casing synagogues and Jewish centers helps you build your list. Within a year you have a significant list of businesses and persons to target. Then during a time of chaos such as after an earthquake or during a riot, when the police are already overloaded, you execute your plan. Your people strike at Jewish businesses – who’s to say it’s not part of the riot – and do home invasions on the Jews you’ve targeted. How soon do you think it would be (if ever) that someone would draw the connection that Jews were being targeted? Burn down a few synagogues during the crisis and you’ve got your Kristalnacht.

And before you think I’m too much of a conspiracy theorist, please read this letter about what happened at a dinner to honor a Jewish woman who had dedicated several years of her life to a charity that worked with African Americans to prevent child abuse and neglect. Consider what Rev. Eric Lee, pres. and CEO of Southern Christian Leadership Conference of Greater Los Angeles said in his speech to honor this woman. Consider that NO ONE who was there from the mayor’s office, from the state assembly, NO ONE objected to what the Rev. was saying.

Now compare what the Rev. was saying to what Rev. Wright said in his sermons about what the white man has done to keep the black man down, and consider how short a jump it would be to start blaming the Jewish bankers who are financing the black man’s slavery.

And NO ONE says anything.

So, yes, I have to wonder: How much longer before America’s Kristallnacht?

<><

First off I apologize for misunderstanding you on in your original post. Secondly I do have to say that the letter you linked is pretty scarey. It is always concerning when that a group of people are being singled out to be “blamed” for the ills in the world.

Presonally I’ve never really meant anyone who was antisemetic (at least that I’m aware) but I’m not so naive as to believe that isn’t there. I just may be lucky enough to live in an area where it isn’t common.

Also it is true that often people don’t express internal hatreds because of fear of social stigmatism. Yet when they feel that these bigotries can be displayed within a safe context they’re there and waiting. In this way sometimes hatred can remain hidden.

An example that comes to mind is after 9/11 there places that had hate crimes against arabs, muslims and Indians. Now the knee jerk excuse for this behavior is that passion from the events of 9/11 caused people to “lose their heads”. Yet in reality the hatred was always there the events of the tragedy though gave a safer context within which to display the racism openly.

I’m sure that there were a lot of normal salt of the earth Germans who would have never dreamed how quickly their homeland could spiral into cruelty and genocide. Its hard to guage what people will do when they feel or are made to feel backed into a corner.

In the end I don’t know if America would ever have anything like Cristalnacht but I do get the general feeling that things (for everybody) are going to get worse before they get better.

 

[catharina]

Muzhik, I think you’ve leaped from conspiracy theory into deep paranoia if you honestly believe that an American Kristallnacht is in this nation’s future. (You misspelled the word, BTW.)

Do you realize that intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles is of astronomical proportions? Do you realize that mobility in this country is virtually unlimited? Do you realize that false identity papers are more available in this country than in almost any other place else on earth? Do you recognize the fact that on the whole, Jews and Gentiles live in a hard-won, peaceful coexistence and that acts of anti-Semitism are charged as felonies? Have you nothing real to occupy your mind? Pray, like the rest of us, for the peace of Jerusalem. I find this thread deeply offensive.

 

[Verisimilitude]

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.

(“Kristallnacht”, BTW, was an orgy of violence, rioting, and looting, targeted at synagogues, Jewish businesses and homes, that occurred in Germany on Nov. 9-10, 1938. It’s generally considered the beginning of the Holocaust.)

<><

No, I don’t think so, but the national mood could change very quickly despite the current desire to fund, protect and excuse most everything Israel in America.

The fundamentalists in America want the Jews to return to bring about Christs return. Islam has a similar end-times scenerio which focuses on Jerusalem.

I don’t see America pushing the Jews out of America toward Israel as much as I see America posturing with rhetoric its unyielding support for Israel that will result in the conflict both sides (fundie-Christians/fundie-Islamists) want.

 

[catharina]

Before anyone asks, from the Psalms:

Psalm 122

6 For the peace of Jerusalem pray: “May those who love you prosper!
7 May peace be within your ramparts, prosperity within your towers.”

 

[Eden]

As the others have stated before, this is just an Evangelical Christian belief that, in order to begin the end times, one of the first events is the Jews returning to the Holy Land. This is not about anti-Semitism, it’s about a group of Christians who believe they will hasten the return of Jesus Christ if they hasten the return of Jews to Israel. I’ve seen infomercials before, sponsored by an Evangelical church, asking for donations to pay for Jews to return to Israel. They are really serious about this idea, which is sad, because it’s a misinterpretation of Scripture.

 

[Contarini]

1. The Christians in the crowd were people who had come to the lecture “to bless Israel.” They were not there to drive the Jews out of town, but to show support for Israel.
2. Because they are comfortable in America, the Jews in the crowd were not open to the idea of aliyah, except as a sentimental reason, maybe to do after retirement, etc.
3. The Christians in the crowd, on the other hand, sense that America is changing, and the Jews need to “get out of Dodge” while they still can.

No, no, no. You completely misunderstand. It has nothing to do with worrying that Jews will be persecuted in the U.S. It has everything to do with the belief that God has promised the Holy Land to the Jews, and that the return of the Jews to that land fulfills Biblical prophecy.

I think it is absurd to think that America is heading in an anti-Semitic direction. Given Jewish history, I can’t blame Jews for being paranoid. But the fact that paranoia is understandable doesn’t make it any more rooted in present reality, or any less counterproductive. What anti-Semitism does exist in the U.S. (and certainly there’s some) is only strengthened by statements like those found in the OP. Anti-Semites will say: “See, those Jews are never content. They have it good here and they still want to persuade us that they are a persecuted minority.”

Again, I totally understand why Jews would think this way. Given what happened in 20th-century Europe, I would not blame Jews if a thousand years from now they were still worrying that the most secure circumstances were just the prelude to new persecution. But I think that in fact you are wrong in this case.

Edwin

 

[puzzleannie]

, ALL the Christians in the room replied with a resounding YES! As the speaker put it, obviously the Christians were aware of something in America that the Jews were ignoring.

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.

<><

I am having difficulty seeing the leap in your reasoning from the account of the lecture and audience reaction, to fear of widespread anti-Jewish violence breaking out in US cities. to make that leap seems to assign motivation to Christians in the audience without any evident of that motivation.

 

[Muzhik]

I am having difficulty seeing the leap in your reasoning from the account of the lecture and audience reaction, to fear of widespread anti-Jewish violence breaking out in US cities. to make that leap seems to assign motivation to Christians in the audience without any evident of that motivation.

Did the clarification I posted at 12:42 PM make the leap in reasoning clearer?

<><

 

[angelusm]

Shalom. I wanted to ask something that has been fighting its way to the forefront of my mind for the last week. A bit of background:

Recently I listened to an Israel National Radio show (“Light Unto Nations”) where one of the hosts was making a speaking tour of the US. He spoke of how he did a presentation at a synagogue about Israel and the importance of making alilyah. (In case you don’t know, “aliyah” is the return of Jews from where ever they are living to Israel.) This lecture was part of a weekly lecture series the rabbi had been holding, which had never drawn more than 20 people. When this guy came to speak, **120 **people showed up. But that’s not what amazed the rabbi. He wasn’t even amazed that at least half the crowd was Christian. He was amazed that when the speaker said it was vital for Jews to make aliyah, ALL the Christians in the room replied with a resounding YES! As the speaker put it, obviously the Christians were aware of something in America that the Jews were ignoring.

So my question is this: does anyone else feel there is a strong probability, almost a certainty, that America will have its own Kristallnacht within the next 5 years? I’m not talking about something nationwide, but about something that would happen in Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York.

(“Kristallnacht”, BTW, was an orgy of violence, rioting, and looting, targeted at synagogues, Jewish businesses and homes, that occurred in Germany on Nov. 9-10, 1938. It’s generally considered the beginning of the Holocaust.)

<><

Either those Christians believe that independent Israel is necessary for Jesus to return (protestant fundamentalists) or they are simply fed up with Jews and just want them to go away, they want to get rid of a parasite.
If Jews will not change their attitude, another Kristalnacht may finally happen. But the only guilty of that will be Jews who are arogant, proud and despise gois.
As for now I would like to congratulate you how skilfully and completely you (Jews) brainwashed other nations and made them believe an obvious lie that holocaust was the biggest and the most extraordinary massacre in the history of a mankind.
The USA are spending billions of dollars on wars just to defend Israel. But remember that nothing lasts forever…

 

[tundramom]

Either those Christians believe that independent Israel is necessary for Jesus to return (protestant fundamentalists) or they are simply fed up with Jews and just want them to go away, they want to get rid of a parasite.
If Jews will not change their attitude, another Kristalnacht may finally happen. But the only guilty of that will be Jews who are arogant, proud and despise gois.
As for now I would like to congratulate you how skilfully and completely you (Jews) brainwashed other nations and made them believe an obvious lie that holocaust was the biggest and the most extraordinary massacre in the history of a mankind.
The USA are spending billions of dollars on wars just to defend Israel. But remember that nothing lasts forever…

If you are Catholic, as your profile says, how on earth can you hold this view?

in Christ
Steph

 

[rpp]

Did the clarification I posted at 12:42 PM make the leap in reasoning clearer?

<><

When combined with this post, we can see that you are in the Central Time Zone in the USA. Other than that, I, like others, do not see the logical leap from evangelicals who support a Jewish Israel to large-scale anti-semitic violence in the USA in a few years.

 

[Muzhik]

When combined with this post, we can see that you are in the Central Time Zone in the USA. Other than that, I, like others, do not see the logical leap from evangelicals who support a Jewish Israel to large-scale anti-semitic violence in the USA in a few years.

That is because it is not a logical leap at all. The thrust of my original question is that many people I know and talk to, both face-to-face and online, have mentioned that they feel SOMETHING is about to happen to America. Others tell me they feel an emotional shift is in the air, one that is not for the better. I sense a greater antisemitism in the air, masked with a righteous tolerance, as in, “I’m not antisemitic, I just don’t like the Jews”, with no one thinking twice about that statement.

So the question remains: How many other people here are having similar “feelings” or sensing something unhealthy in the air (besides your neighbor’s grilling)?

<><

 

[puzzleannie]

Did the clarification I posted at 12:42 PM make the leap in reasoning clearer?

<><

no, unfortunately, either the Christians in the audience to whom you attribute this line of thinking are making an enormous leap w/o foundation (unless they see themselves as the source of the danger they predict) or someone reading and interpreting the story is doing so.