Kristalnacht in America?

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The power-wielding group of American Christians is Baptist-Fundamentalist-Nondenom, almost all of whom are extremely pro-Israel and pro-Jewish, to the point of watching open-mouthed the TV programs where their pastor-stars visit Jerusalem and bless everything and collect relics. If a group of antisemites wanted to gain popularity it would have to go through them. That is very far-fetched. Besides, every sociologist who investigates antisemitic organizations in this country finds that they are predominantly illiterate, very poor, underage to vote, ignorant beyond all imagining (really, unimaginably so), brain-damaged and emotionally and socially impaired in many ways. They constitute far less of a political presence than people who think we’re from outer space and are taken less seriously than breatharians and other objects of ridicule. I think the odds of those silly racists taking over anything bigger than a two-bit off-the-beaten-track tavern are one-thousandth as great as the odds of a delayed world breakdown from Y2K or a mothership coming to take everyone to another planet. Not going to happen.
 
To say that violence cannot occur in America is wrong…we have had race riots during the 50’s and 60’s during the Civil Rights movement. Before the Civil War, there were battles and skirmishes between pro-and anti-slavery factions.

However, I don’t think a Kristalnacht can or will happen in this country. I believe Kristalnachtt was organized, or at least supported, by the Nazi government of Germany. There is no way this government would ever support something like that.
 
That is because it is not a logical leap at all. The thrust of my original question is that many people I know and talk to, both face-to-face and online, have mentioned that they feel SOMETHING is about to happen to America. Others tell me they feel an emotional shift is in the air, one that is not for the better. I sense a greater antisemitism in the air, masked with a righteous tolerance, as in, “I’m not antisemitic, I just don’t like the Jews”, with no one thinking twice about that statement.

So the question remains: How many other people here are having similar “feelings” or sensing something unhealthy in the air (besides your neighbor’s grilling)?

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Generally I hear secular liberals talking this way, because they don’t like the prominence of conservative Christians. I don’t think antisemitism has anything to do with this.

You still have not addressed the explanation several of us have given for the one specific piece of evidence you have provided. It is not clear to me that you understand dispensationalist evangelicals at all. There’s nothing wrong with that–it’s just that their reasons for wanting Jews to go to Israel are almost certainly completely different from those that you ascribe to them. You say that you have other evidence as well, but you haven’t provided any.

I don’t want to dismiss your concerns. It’s kind of like when my wife thinks someone is trying to break into the house. I’m sure she’s wrong, but if she was right I would feel terrible for not being more careful. But you have almost certainly misunderstood at least one of your pieces of evidence.

Edwin
 
Seriously? The Jews are the next to be targeted in this theory?

Personally, with the current political and cultural climate, I figure it would be Christians due up for the next round of organized violence. Or Muslims. But the Jews? :confused:

🤷
 
Seriously? The Jews are the next to be targeted in this theory?

Personally, with the current political and cultural climate, I figure it would be Christians due up for the next round of organized violence. Or Muslims.
Or atheists!

If Jews are attacked, it will probably be either in the context of black nationalism (which was the basis for the one clear instance of antisemitism the OP has reported) or of conservative hostility toward secular liberals (many of whom are Jews by heritage). I worry about the latter. That’s the one way I could see genuine anti-Semitism becoming powerful in this country. But I think dispensationalist eschatology stands firmly in the way (even though I disagree with it). However much conservative evangelicals may dislike secular Jews, they have a very strong and fundamentally ingrained inclination to think well of Jews in general. They aren’t likely to generalize. This I think makes a lot of difference compared to, say, early-20th-century Europe, where many Catholics in particular were fine with anti-Semitic measures (up to a point) because they saw them as part of a campaign against secularism and liberalism.

Ironically, while I think dispensationalist theology is untenable, its destruction would probably be a bad thing in terms of the climate for Jews in this country.

Edwin
 
I believe if there is rioting in violence in the US in the near future it will not be in any way related to persecution of Jews. I can see it happening, but not directed towards Jews, but towards other sources of social stress.

I agree with the idea that anti-Jewish sentiment is more prevalent in Europe. The effort to even conceal anti-Jewish attitudes appears to be diminishing.

Having said that, my friends that are Jewish have expressed to me their concern that the Jewish population still needs to be built up, and that one way to support Israel’s existence is to move there, own property there, etc. I have never heard them express concern that the personal safety of Jews in the US was at risk.
 
You still have not addressed the explanation several of us have given for the one specific piece of evidence you have provided. It is not clear to me that you understand dispensationalist evangelicals at all. There’s nothing wrong with that–it’s just that their reasons for wanting Jews to go to Israel are almost certainly completely different from those that you ascribe to them. You say that you have other evidence as well, but you haven’t provided any.

Edwin
I’m very familiar with dispensationalist evangelicals. Why, some of my best friends are dispensationalist evangelicals! 😉 I don’t believe some of the dispensationalist interpretations can be dismissed out of hand. I know there are some Catholics who say (for example) that there is no Scriptural significance or prophetic fulfillment to the creation of the modern State of Israel in 1948, but frankly, hearing them say that makes me think of discussions with Protestants over the Eucharist: “When Jesus said ‘This is My Body’, He didn’t mean THA-A-T!”

When you look at history, you see cycles in Jewish migration: first they are welcomed into a location, then after a couple of centuries, they are expelled. It’s been more than a couple of centuries since the first Jews arrived in America. If the cycle holds true then they should be “dis-invited” fairly soon. My reasons for supporting those who want to make aliyah are the same for the reasons the Jewish state was created in the first place: it’s the one place on the planet where no one can “dis-invite them” and tell them to leave.

My evidence has been the growing number of attacks on Jews in different cities in America (too many examples to cite here) and the afore-mentioned incident involving the CEO of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference of Greater Los Angeles. When someone in such a leadership position in the Christian community can make the statements he did with no one batting an eye, it means the views he expressed have been accepted as normal or expected by the audience. The antisemitism has been internalized. When you have mainline Christian denominations such as the Presbyterians issuing statements that effectively support the rocket attacks from Gaza on Sderot (i.e., 7000 rocket attacks in 8 years is nothing to complain about, and the Jews brought it on themselves), then yes, I worry. I worry that these messages are being internalized by the greater American population, making any increase in anti-semitic violence nothing to worry about.

I’m not anticipating a nation-wide anti-semitic outbreak; but I think something like a Kristallnacht in a large American city MAY be a possibility.

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I am going to have trouble expressing myself here, because I am somewhat baffled by what I see as a building anti-semitism myself.

But first, I do not believe anything remotely resembling Kristallnacht is building here. I absolutely, positively believe that if some group or other started something like that, they would be immediately pounded senseless by the majority of ordinary Americans. I think the sense of outrage would be remarkable to behold. I truly believe that. I’ll say many non-Jews in America are not entirely comfortable with Jews because Jews aren’t just like them. But I absolutely believe the great majority would defend Jews to the death. I know I would. Besides being human beings and Americans, many Jews are very wise people and they are, to me, still God’s original people, and precious in His eyes.

On the other hand, there is something else I sense that makes my skin crawl just a bit. The Joe Lieberman episode heightened it. I really do believe some of the “new far left”; the “Neoleft”, as it were, is totalitarian to the core. Let’s look at it realistically. Lieberman is a practicing Jew, and says so. He is a supporter of Israel; the one thing in which he does not otherwise fit the liberal mould. He was not trusted by the Neoleft. It’s not because he supported the Iraq war per se. So did, and likely does, the female presidential candidate, if the truth be admitted. But she could shift her position for the sake of the Neoleft agenda, and everybody knew that too. But I absolutely believe Lieberman was considered “hopeless” because he is a practicing Jew. The Neoleft is, in that way, a lot like the old anti-Catholics who believed a Catholic president would turn the keys of the White House over to the Pope.

Israel is no longer popular with the far left in this country. The most anti-semitic Islamic institutions imaginable are now its darlings. It’s not about anti-Judaism as such. It’s more like a subcategory of anti-Americanism on the part of people who are not entirely dissimilar from the Bolshevik sympathizers of the first half of the 20th century, who want America reduced in power and influence worldwide. Israel is in the unhappy position of being rather dependant on American power and influence outside its borders. So it is an automatic enemy to that very influential segment of the political spectrum. Jews, whether in Israel or in the U.S. who support Israel are therefore the enemy as well. Not every Jew in the U.S. supports Israel, but many do. Practicing Jews are imagined to be more likely than non-believing Jews to do so. So Joe Lieberman had to go. They didn’t get rid of him though, of course, because the populace liked him. But that doesn’t mean the hard left is through with him. They never forgive and never give up.

In a society in which many of the elites oppose religion carte blanche, believing Jews are only slightly less disliked than believing Christians. But as supporters of the “agents of American imperialism” (Israel), they are, in my opinion, even more disliked by the anti-American elites than American Christians who, after all, go home after the nation’s wars are over. Israel, a Jewish state, stays.

Perhaps I am a fool. But if I were a practicing Jew, I would not fear evangelicals. I would not fear fundamentalist Christians. I would not fear faithful Catholics. I would not fear “ordinary Americans”. Not at all. They would die to protect me, I would believe. But I would greatly fear those who think the U.S. is an evil influence in the world, because they see Israel as an American “colony”, and they suspect some Jews of being a force behind American “imperialism”. You can see posts even in here by apologists for Hamas and Hezbollah. Few who seem to be Catholics agree with them. But some do. Their propaganda is out there all the time. A former American president went and kissed up to people who kill Israeli children. An American presidential candidate wants to establish relations with a nation whose leaders want to eradicate Israel and deny the holocaust. To me, that would be scary if I were a Jew.

Antisemitism is never about Judaism itself. It’s always about something else; economic notions, political scapegoating, racial protectionism, a cover for outright theft. Always something else.
Right now, I think antisemitism in the U.S. is about opposition to American influence overseas. It’s not a big thing yet, and it doesn’t show its face directly, but the savaging of Joe Lieberman was an early shot across the bow, in my opinion. It’s the “dirty little secret” of that episode; the thing nobody wants to talk about openly. He was thrown overboard because he could not be trusted to ever throw Israel overboard. He was not trusted in that, precisely because he is a practicing and seemingly faithful Jew.

That’s a lot more subtle than throwing bricks through windows; something Americans would never tolerate. It’s a slow sale of a disengagement of American sympathy with and support of Israel. It’s an undermining of the support America owes Israel and Jews; owed because of the holocaust, respect, and Israel’s fidelity as a U.S. ally. Like the Lieberman thing, people won’t even recognize it for what it is. I don’t like it. If I were a Jew, knowing I would likely be thought of by some as a “foreign agent” just because of being a Jew, I would like it even less.
 
Wow Ridge you nailed it! 👍

The only thing that I would add is that the NeoLeft, while they think of themselves as the enlightened ones, are actually so obsessed with race that they are among the most racist in the US. (They would, of course, hotly deny this but their obsession with race speaks for itself.) This is not good for any ethnic minority that winds up in their sights.

And, perhaps even more pertinent to the subject at hand, the NeoLeft are also often not only not religious, they are often adamantly anti-religious and can be scathingly critical of those who practice any type of religion. Bill Maher is a perfect example, someone who thinks of religion as something a thoughtful, educated and intelligent person grows out of.
 
Ridgerunner,

Wow! Thanks! For someone who has trouble expressing themselves, you expressed just what I was trying to get at with all my messages!

<><
 
I am going to have trouble expressing myself here, because I am somewhat baffled by what I see as a building anti-semitism myself.
That was all very interesting, I’m sure, and admittedly, in the times we lived in America, I took next to no interest in American politics (definitely “somebody else’s problem”) but, as a European Jew, I know exactly where the Jew-haters are to be found in Europe and it’s where it’s traditionally always been (plus the more perpetually confused amongst the Muslim population) - on the knuckle-dragging section of the Right.

So, having had my eyes opened by you to the Jew-hating activities of the American Left, I’d be terribly interested to know about the proportion of physical attacks upon Jews and Jewish communal property committed by left-wing thugs.
 
When Sen. Lieberman appeared as a candidate in 2000, there was of course a rash of anti-semitic statements against him on the internet. These overwhelmingly came from people who are not associated in any way with liberals, “neoleft” etc.

Groups like Storm Front and “World Church of the Creator” were largely responsible.

“While undoubtedly some will be surprised by this, I am very happy that the Jew Joseph Lieberman has been chosen by Al Gore to be his running mate, for it brings the pervasive Jewish influence of the federal government out in the open so that people can see what we anti-Semites are talking about.” – Matt Hale, in a press release e-mailed to his followers. (leader of World Church of the Creator".

As for Kristalnacht happening in America, we have already instituted the American version.

In Just 8 weeks in 1999 there was a series of arson attacks on synagouges in Sacramento, and shootings targeting Jews and other minorities in Chicago and LA.
 
When Sen. Lieberman appeared as a candidate in 2000, there was of course a rash of anti-semitic statements against him on the internet. These overwhelmingly came from people who are not associated in any way with liberals, “neoleft” etc.

Groups like Storm Front and “World Church of the Creator” were largely responsible.

“While undoubtedly some will be surprised by this, I am very happy that the Jew Joseph Lieberman has been chosen by Al Gore to be his running mate, for it brings the pervasive Jewish influence of the federal government out in the open so that people can see what we anti-Semites are talking about.” – Matt Hale, in a press release e-mailed to his followers. (leader of World Church of the Creator".

As for Kristalnacht happening in America, we have already instituted the American version.

In Just 8 weeks in 1999 there was a series of arson attacks on synagouges in Sacramento, and shootings targeting Jews and other minorities in Chicago and LA.
Though this is true, there are the classic anti-semites like Mr.Hale and his group throughout the nation- they are relics of the past.

I believe Ridgerunner was referencing Sen.Liberman’s recent Senatorial election, where he didn’t get through his primary; but was re-elected by the state of Connecticut. And he lost that primary among the left-leaning crowd because he’s Jewish and he supports Israel. Being a resident of said state, among the left there is something of a fervor against Jews and Israelis that is starting to bubble up. How much of a threat they are is certainly up for debate; and it may never match the classical anti-semitism of someone like Hale and his hatemongers; but these anti-semetic sentiments are certainly out there on both sides of the political spectrum. Especially in the colleges and amongst the youth.
 
When Sen.Liberman was on the ticket, I felt that he was the best Cadidate on there that year. Actually, far and a way the best. Even though I am not in agreement with him on many things.

I was amazed at the backlash against him that I heard. Surprizingly, the one honest and goodness unappologetic anti-Semite that I know had no issues with him. I never got a clear reason, but it seemed to be that he felt the Jews ran everything anyway, they might as well be open about it.

I think that one reason there is some growth in antiSemitism in America is the decline in the ability of people to learn and reason. Typically, it is uneducated people who are racist.
 
When Sen. Lieberman appeared as a candidate in 2000, there was of course a rash of anti-semitic statements against him on the internet. These overwhelmingly came from people who are not associated in any way with liberals, “neoleft” etc.
And yet, the knuckle-dragging “right” was not responsible for Lieberman’s “ousting” from his political party.

I don’t know what anti-semites are like in Europe. I do know that some of the more “knuckle-dragging” overt anti-semitic groups in the U.S. are anything but “rightists” in the sense of being true political conservatives. They are much more like “national socialists”, with very statist and redistributionist underpinnings to their rather confused goals. Their membership tends to be composed of the undereducated underclass; people whose economic condition, they believe, can only be improved by looting someone else who, they hold, has acquired wealth without deserving it as much as they see themselves as “deserving” it. Methods, of course, differ.

I don’t know who, exactly, is responsible for any anti-Jewish violence in the places named above. The only “Kristallnacht” I have ever seen personally, occurred when I lived in a racially-changing neighborhood in a large city. The local version of the Black Panthers did go on an organized campaign to drive Jewish merchants out of the neighborhood. And, yes, part of it was throwing bricks through shop windows in the middle of the night, followed by looting. For a time then, Jewish shops all had boarded-up or bricked-up windows or had those “cages” hastily installed. Then the Jewish merchants all left. There was a kind of “residential hotel”, a nice one, in the neighborhood, largely tenanted by elderly Jews. It, too, was harrassed, and they all moved out. Again, it was not about Judaism, per se. It was not even about race, exactly. It was about the perpetrating organization’s drive to replace those Jewish merchants and residents with its own partisans. And they got it done, too. As a non-Jewish white who very obviously owned nothing worth having, I was tolerated. The “perps” were quite open about their goals, and the local liberal media not only didn’t raise cain about it, they “understood”. The perps were anything but members of the “knuckle dragging right” we associate with the neoKKK, Neonazis, etc. That sentiment I saw reflected nationally when a reference to “Hymietown” was not only not resoundly condemned; the utterer remained an honored member of the left wing.

Again, I really don’t think the truly scary kind (because it’s effective) of American antisemitism has anything to do with Judaism as such. It has to do with the goals of particular groups, which can vary. Right now, the elitist left and the “knuckle dragging right” have much in common, though their objectives are not exactly the same. But then, those who see themselves as economically oppressed by someone else are often the agents, witting or unwitting, of statist, totalitarian-minded elites.

“Left” and “Right” are not very good terms for the groups in the U.S. “Neocons” and “Neoleft” are only imprecisely descriptive of conglomerations of individuals whose ideas and goals overlap. The “neonazi” types are neither one, being more like “gangs”, which may well ally themselves with truly political groups from time to time. On the far fringes, there is little difference between the Aryan Brotherhood, for example, and the Black P. Stone Nation or MS-13. There is a racial overlay to all, but racism really isn’t what they’re about.
 
To say that such a thing could never happen here is to ignore history. All you have to do is look at the rise of Nazism in Germany. Put together the right set of circumstances and it could happen anywhere.

It was NOT a large band of folks who brought about the rise of Nazism. A small handful of brutal thugs, a depression, and a scapegoat group of folks to blame all their troubles on, was all it took to bring a madman to power.

IF you have a nation in turmoil with run away inflation, appear to save the country, kill off all the opposition, control the press, make everyone else afraid of you, and blame everything on someone else, you can make yourself into an all powerful dictator.

Just see how easy it was for GW to suspend human rights with the Patriot act. Harness everyone’s fear and they give up their rights all too easily.
 
Before heading off to work, I want to express the following:

I have no pretense at all of understanding antisemitism from the Jewish point of view, better than Kanchinen and Valke2. I have surely not thought about it as much as they have. But I do think, as a non-Jew, I have some insight into antisemites. I am particularly familiar with the “neonazi” “Aryan Nations” types. I live in an area whose topography is such that one could have a paramilitary camp two miles away from the sheriff’s office, and law enforcement would know nothing of its existence until it does something overt. Consequently, those groups spring up around here like mushrooms after a spring rain. They also disappear just as rapidly, because they’re so subject to infiltration and fall apart in the face of determined law enforcement. I know a fair number of those people, and have for years.

I was also present in Chicago when a political “alliance” was formed between the “hard left” and the Black P. Stone Nation (They had recently changed their name from “Blackstone Rangers”. I’m not sure what they call themselves now. Without the slightest possibility of doubt, one of the presidential candidates knows.) That alliance had very definite political effects.

Doubtless, my own experiences color my view of things. Maybe they have led me astray intellectually, and maybe they haven’t. Again, I have no pretense to understanding antisemitism from the Jewish point of view, though I will never forget a conversation with a Jewish shop owner back in that changing neighborhood in which I once lived. He did influence my “understanding” a great deal, and nothing I have said in this thread contradicts what he had to say. So, while my conversations with Jews about the phenomenon is limited, I think, at least, that I have some understanding of the other side of the equation. The “Aryan” types with which I am familiar are capable of violence, but they are absolutely incapable of getting away with it on any kind of scale or for any significant period of time, and even less capable of effective political action.

As little as I understand it, I have come to believe Israel represents some Jews’ thought that “at least here, we will not take it lying down”. That means nothing to people whose agenda is to remove American “influence” through alliances, from the globe. It is the misfortune of Israel that some people think of Israel as an “American outpost”. It isn’t, except in an alliance sense, but it’s convenient for some to say it is, and we see them say it more and more, it seems.

The truly ironic thing is that while the “knuckle dragging Aryans” overtly say that American Jews determine American overseas wars because of their greater devotion to Israel, the Lieberman episode has all the earmarks of the very same thing. It’s just not spoken out loud. There is not as much difference between the “ultra right” and the “ultra left” as people often think.
 
As long as the Nazi reference keeps being made, please remember it was not “ultra right”, but was a socialist movement. The Nazi party was a National Socialist party.

Other versions of socialists like to portray the Nazis as something other than socialists, to distance themselves from the Nazis. And since the Nazis were at war at one point with Communist Russia, this is pointed to as some sort of proof. But efforts to portray the Nazis as “ultra right” are imprecise. They may not have been Marxists, but they were socialists.

Having said that, I agree with Ridge that ultra-right and ultra-left are sometimes difficult to distinguish. I remember my Father saying years ago (whose family emigrated from pre-Nazi Germany) that the ultra-left and ultra-right reach around the back and touch eachother. An interesting visual. That was long before we had “Neo Right” and “Neo Left”.

So perhaps it is more accurate to simply describe them as totalitarian, because both movements are just that ~ controlling, intolerant of dissent, utterly racist, and actively seeking to impose their views on the rest of us.
 
To say that such a thing could never happen here is to ignore history. All you have to do is look at the rise of Nazism in Germany. Put together the right set of circumstances and it could happen anywhere.

It was NOT a large band of folks who brought about the rise of Nazism. A small handful of brutal thugs, a depression, and a scapegoat group of folks to blame all their troubles on, was all it took to bring a madman to power.

IF you have a nation in turmoil with run away inflation, appear to save the country, kill off all the opposition, control the press, make everyone else afraid of you, and blame everything on someone else, you can make yourself into an all powerful dictator.

Just see how easy it was for GW to suspend human rights with the Patriot act. Harness everyone’s fear and they give up their rights all too easily.
Human rights have not been suspended with the Patriot Act. Even if that’s true, then the enforcement of such suspensions have been very…inept given the constant criticism of the President, even from members of Congress. :rolleyes:
 
I don’t see it happening here for several reasons. **First, these “Christians” might be from the denominations that teach that once all the Jews “go home” and rebuild the temple, Jesus will return. ** This idea is not common in most Christian Churches. Second, Americans as a whole are too lazy to get off the couch to have an orgy of violence. Nope. Not going to happen. Third, we have no systematic method of identifying Jewish holdings in America. Yes, places of worship, but not homes and businesses. I would love to know where this was and what denomination these Christians were.
I would suspect this to be true. There are several ministries that are focused on the relationship between Christians, Jews and Israel.

Check these out:
ffoz.org/
and
howardmorganministries.org/
click on Teachings
The first article listed is
ISRAEL, THE CHURCH AND
THE RETURN OF JESUS

Just some basic info
 
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