Krister Stendahl, bishop of Stockholm

[JonNC]

Do you remember how it is with the oneness in John 17, where Jesus prays that they all be one? And you, father, are in me, and I am in you, and they are in us. It’s like the biological world: Everything is interdependent. It’s a giving and a receiving. It’s a oneness that is not a glob, but a living interplay. Plural."

Amen! And in the biological world, organisms have a niche, play a role in this “living interplay”, and one thing does not hold the niche of another. The lamb is not the predator, nor does the lion produce oxygen for animals to live. We each have a role, none more important than the other, but also not the same. Equal is not same. Women have a God blessed role in His kingdom, as do men.

Jon

 

[hn160]

The problem with liberal branches of the Lutheran Church, they believe Scripture changes with the world view and if the Church doesn’t accommodate the world, the Church will die. Also they believe that God is still speaking and what was written and spoke by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles including St. Paul was for their time, but thing change. They also believe that the social gospel, the environment and politics are more important.
I used to be a member of an ELCA church, I recently received an e-mail of the agenda of the ELCA’s National Convention to be held August 12-17 in Pittsburgh, PA.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The problem with liberal branches of the Lutheran Church, they believe Scripture changes with the world view and if the Church doesn’t accommodate the world, the Church will die. Also they believe that God is still speaking and what was written and spoke by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles including St. Paul was for their time, but thing change. They also believe that the social gospel, the environment and politics are more important.
I used to be a member of an ELCA church, I recently received an e-mail of the agenda of the ELCA’s National Convention to be held August 12-17 in Pittsburgh, PA.

That is a thoughtful response. The governments of Lutheran countries were in sync with the Church in providing for female equity and same-sex marriage.

 

[aidanbradypop]

That is a thoughtful response. The governments of Lutheran countries were in sync with the Church in providing for female equity and same-sex marriage.

governments also allow abortion, slavery, genocide, wmd against citizens…etc

 

[JonNC]

That is a thoughtful response. The governments of Lutheran countries were in sync with the Church in providing for female equity and same-sex marriage.

If you, indeed, are a Lutheran, and your synod practices sola scriptura, and reads scripture in the light of the Lutheran confessions, then you should be able to support from scripture and the confessions what you post here, not only about ordination, but about human sexual behavior.
In short, where does scripture say, or at least not contradict the statement, that homosexuality is a moral behavior? Where is the innovation of ordaining women supported in scripture or Lutheran orthodoxy?

Jon

PS: The problem is these things are not in sync with the Church.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I wish there were more Lutherans from New York & Northeast on CAF. The reality of civil and ecclesiastical gay marriage is a decided issue in parts of the world [Latin America/ Canada, Europe].

There are provisions for differences within the Church.

Lutherans and Anglicans are seeking Christ’s presence to nourish all the faithful in the Church. We start with what we humbly believe and adore the Real Presence of our Lord. That is our Christian strength.

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11010858]I wish there were more Lutherans from New York & Northeast on CAF. The reality of civil and ecclesiastical gay marriage is a decided issue in parts of the world [Latin America/ Canada, Europe].

Ok, it is a reality of civil law. We are in this world, not of it. What scriptural and confessional support is there for you to say it is moral?

Lutherans and Anglicans are seeking Christ’s presence to nourish all the faithful in the Church. We start with what we humbly believe and adore the Real Presence of our Lord. That is our Christian strength.

“My hope is built on nothing less,
than Jesus blood and righteousness.”

Agreed! Our Christian strength is in the Gospel, but we also recognize the three uses of the law: curb, mirror, guide. If we decide to reinvent His law, how are these three uses of the law manifested?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Ok, EC. I know you’ve been on the thread and choose not to respond to my questions.
That’s ok, as you don’t have to on an open forum. But I choose to no longer inquire, and I’ll leave you with this, from our Formula of Concord, Epitome. The Comprehensive summary, rule and norm on how the Evangelical Lutheran Church determines doctrine:

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.

I was simply asking that you do these things in support of your claims.

His peace be with you,

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

I wish there were more Lutherans from New York & Northeast on CAF. The reality of civil and ecclesiastical gay marriage is a decided issue in parts of the world [Latin America/ Canada, Europe].

Decided by who? Secular governments and liberal faith traditions? This is a decided issue in the Catholic Church as well, and the decision is against, not in favor. The point was made that governments also condone abortion and euthanasia, although I would imagine that you are in support of these as well so the point was probably lost.

You come across as having the strange belief that by embracing any and all modern philosophies and human notions that you are somehow acting in a Christian manner, out of love for your neighbor. This is a very misguided notion and one that is contradicted by the examples of evangelization found in Scripture. We are to teach the world the Truth; not give into every whim and fancy in order to retain membership while pretending that we are spreading the Gospel.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My response is simple. Good Bishop, in the nearly 2000 years of the Church, be it east of west, Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, or Evangelical Catholic, no where does the historic Church interpret Christ’s actions in the way you do here, sir. The universal Church with unanimity professes that His clergy reflect His choice, that as males. Further, St. Paul makes no distinction about which race can or cannot speak in the Church, but only the appropriate role of each gender in the Church.
Even if there were a chance that, maybe, women could be ordained without evidence from scripture or the Tradition of the Church, including our confessions, why would we not err on the side of caution, to protect the validity of our clergy and the word and sacraments He calls them to pronounce and provide in His name?

Jon

EC,
I’ve answered yours. Please answer mine.

Bro, I can’t answer your question other than to a source or two. Church unity means just as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification states:

1. We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:
2. When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love ("the favor of God"12), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

Let me mention Presiding Bishop H. George Anderson [ELCA] assessment in 2000 of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification as example of celebrating common ground.

Bishop Anderson notes that Lutherans and Catholics have been able to take steps forward in ecumenism, but always with suspicion. “There has always been the question: Are these folks on the other side (Lutheran or Catholic) really orthodox Christians or are they heretical in some way? The statement that the condemnations of the 16th century no longer apply to the Churches clears the air and provides, in the words of the pope, a cornerstone for future ecumenical progress.” What once was a stumbling block has now become the cornerstone, observes Bishop Anderson, “a foundation on which we can build from here.”

He foresees growing areas of unity, but there are still significant areas to be addressed. “I think we need to examine questions of ministry—for example, the issue of papal infallibility on the Lutheran side, and the ordination of women from the Catholic side. Those are issues on which we now differ and we’re going to have to discuss.”

Bishop Anderson sees these as “significant blocks,” because each position developed in one Church apart from the other. “Lutherans decided on ordination of women, the First Vatican Council decided on papal infallibility, and we have to now ask how these Churches can deal with these separate decisions.”

americancatholic.org/messenger/jun2000/feature2.asp

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Faith and Works: Catholics and Lutherans Find Agreement

In a commentary on the joint declaration, the Holy See suggested that both Lutherans and Catholics need to “find a language which can make the doctrine on justification more intelligible also for men and women of our day.” Both Bishop Anderson and Brother Gros see down-to-earth implications for this new acknowledgment of shared understanding. Bishop Anderson points first to the many joint celebrations of the agreement between local Lutheran and Catholic congregations: “They really were spontaneous. I think it demonstrates that both Lutherans and Catholics see this as a sign of hope, a basis for more parish cooperation in every community, big or little.” He also points to Lutherans and Catholics joined in marriage: “This statement assures the two partners that there is an increasing common faith, that they share a common faith instead of coming at it from two separate traditions.”
St Anthony Messenger

 

[SteveVH]

Originaly Posted by EvangelCatholic
Bishop Anderson notes that Lutherans and Catholics have been able to take steps forward in ecumenism, but always with suspicion. “There has always been the question: Are these folks on the other side (Lutheran or Catholic) really orthodox Christians or are they heretical in some way? The statement that the condemnations of the 16th century no longer apply to the Churches clears the air and provides, in the words of the pope, a cornerstone for future ecumenical progress.” What once was a stumbling block has now become the cornerstone, observes Bishop Anderson, “a foundation on which we can build from here.”

He foresees growing areas of unity, but there are still significant areas to be addressed. “I think we need to examine questions of ministry—for example, the issue of papal infallibility on the Lutheran side, and the ordination of women from the Catholic side. Those are issues on which we now differ and we’re going to have to discuss.”

Bishop Anderson sees these as “significant blocks,” because each position developed in one Church apart from the other. “Lutherans decided on ordination of women, the First Vatican Council decided on papal infallibility, and we have to now ask how these Churches can deal with these separate decisions.”

Don’t be misled by the use of the word “discuss”. I guaranty you that these issues are not negotiable from the Catholic Church’s view point. It will never agree to ordain women and that position is officially infallible doctrine, a definitive statement made by Pope John Paul, II.

The infallibility of the pope is also doctrine and cannot be changed. I will say that it might be better explained. It is not the dark beast that people make it out to be. I truly believe that if understood properly, that people will come to understand that it is not just a reality, but a necessity in guarding the deposit of faith received from the Apostles. Men without this divine gift cannot help but fall into error. It is a divine institution and therefore gifted with divine assistance in preserving the truth. That should bring comfort, not controversy.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This forum is for the discussion of ecumenism and dialogue, as I see it. Please be aware that providing documents for consideration, means actually reading these Declarations and scholarly work.

Don’t kill the messenger because of the message especially when it is the majority opinion of Lutherans and Anglicans.

 

[hn160]

Decided by who? Secular governments and liberal faith traditions? This is a decided issue in the Catholic Church as well, and the decision is against, not in favor. The point was made that governments also condone abortion and euthanasia, although I would imagine that you are in support of these as well so the point was probably lost.

You come across as having the strange belief that by embracing any and all modern philosophies and human notions that you are somehow acting in a Christian manner, out of love for your neighbor. This is a very misguided notion and one that is contradicted by the examples of evangelization found in Scripture. We are to teach the world the Truth; not give into every whim and fancy in order to retain membership while pretending that we are spreading the Gospel.

The ELCA decises Scriptural matters, such as abortion, homosexual marriage , homosexual ordination, female ordination, etc by National Assembly vote at their conventions. In the LC-MS anything that is settled by Scripture can not be voted upon by the National Convention. Those matters are settled.

 

[SteveVH]

The ELCA decises Scriptural matters, such as abortion, homosexual marriage , homosexual ordination, female ordination, etc by National Assembly vote at their conventions. In the LC-MS anything that is settled by Scripture can not be voted upon by the National Convention. Those matters are settled.

Then I am confused. Are you saying that issues such as abortion, homosexual marriage, homosexual ordination and female ordination are not settled by Scripture and are therefore settled by a vote?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The ELCA decises Scriptural matters, such as abortion, homosexual marriage , homosexual ordination, female ordination, etc by National Assembly vote at their conventions. In the LC-MS anything that is settled by Scripture can not be voted upon by the National Convention. Those matters are settled.

What is the position on abortion in the ELCA, one might ask?

A. Continuing the Pregnancy
Because of the Christian presumption to preserve and protect life, this church, in most circumstances, encourages women with unintended pregnancies to continue the pregnancy. Faith and trust in God’s promises has the power to sustain people in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In each set of circumstances, there must also be a realistic assessment of what will be necessary to bear, nurture, and provide for children over the long-term, and what resources are available or need to be provided for this purpose. The needs of children are a constant. The parenting arrangements through which these needs are met may vary. If it is not possible for both parents to raise the child, this might be done by one parent, by the extended family, or by foster or adoptive parents.

An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.

A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.[E] This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and oppressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God’s purposes.

There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.

 

[hn160]

What is the position on abortion in the ELCA, one might ask?

This social teaching statement was adopted by a more than two-thirds majority vote at the sec- ond biennial Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, meeting in Orlando, Florida, August 28-September 4, 1991.

B. Ending a Pregnancy
This church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion. The following provides guidance for those considering such a decision. We recognize that conscientious decisions need to be made in relation to difficult circumstances that vary greatly. What is determined to be a morally responsible decision in one situation may not be in another.
In reflecting ethically on what should be done in the case of an unintended preg- nancy, consideration should be given to the status and condition of the life in the womb. We also need to consider the conditions under which the pregnancy oc- curred and the implications of the pregnancy for the woman’s life.
An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a preg- nancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.
A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.E This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and op- pressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God’s purposes.
There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.
Although abortion raises significant moral issues at any stage of fetal develop- ment, the closer the life in the womb comes to full term the more serious such issues become.F When a child can survive outside a womb, it becomes possible for other people, and not only the mother, to nourish and care for the child. This church opposes ending intrauterine life when a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology. If a preg- nancy needs to be interrupted after this point, every reasonable and necessary effort should be made to support this life, unless there are lethal fetal abnormali- ties indicating that the prospective newborn will die very soon.
Our biblical and confessional commitments provide the basis for us to continue deliberating together on the moral issues related to these decisions. We have the responsibility to make the best possible decisions in light of the information avail- able to us and our sense of accountability to God, neighbor, and self. In these decisions, we must ultimately rely on the grace of God.
The whole statement is found at elca.org/~/media/Files/What%20We%20Believe/Social%20Issues/abortion/Abortion%20social%20statement.pdf

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Pope Francis: news.va/en/news/pope-francis-friday-mass-at-santa-marta

"Brothers, we have a treasure: that of Jesus Christ the Saviour. The Cross of Jesus Christ, this treasure of which we pride ourselves - but we have it in a clay vessel. Let us vaunt also our ‘handbook’ of our sins. Thus is the dialogue Christian and Catholic: concrete, because the salvation of Jesus Christ is concrete. Jesus Christ has not saved us with an idea, an intellectual program, no. He saved with His flesh, with the concreteness of flesh. He is lowered, made man, made flesh until the end. This is a gift that we can only understand, only receive, in earthen vessels. "

 

[SteveVH]

What is the position on abortion in the ELCA, one might ask?

An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.

I wonder if that same woman would risk her life to defend her child against a predator.

A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.[E] This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and oppressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God’s purposes.

And I am still amazed at how one arrives at a position of justification to impose a death sentence on the only person in these situations that we know is completely innocent. Even the rapist, in most countries, does not receive a death sentence. This position is indefensible. There are always other options that would result in saving the life of the child.

There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.

And what constitutes extreme fetal abnormality? Downs syndrome? They are amazing, loving people capable of knowing God. What about a life threatening abnormality? And what if they live for only days or weeks or months, or just a few years? When a person learns that they have a terminal disease should we terminate them as well? What chance do they have at happiness?

 

[aidanbradypop]

This forum is for the discussion of ecumenism and dialogue, as I see it. Please be aware that providing documents for consideration, means actually reading these Declarations and scholarly work.

Don’t kill the messenger because of the message especially when it is the majority opinion of Lutherans and Anglicans.

ELCA is dropping members really fast and it is projected that the LCMS will become the largest Lutheran synod in the US in 5 yrs. Maybe the majority opinion is not the right one.