LA RE Conference - Closing Liturgy

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You would think the Archdiocese could have at least celebrated its closing liturgy of the conference licitly.

For starters, the sacred vessels which were to hold Our Lord were made out of glass and wicker. Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum says that,

“Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20V
 
franklinf said:
Where was that? Was that hte LA cathedral or an auditorium?
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I believe that it might be the Staples’ Center, the home of the Lakers and the Clippers. The incense “ceremony” is quite disconcerting. With all due respect, it looks almost Druid-like in nature, something that does not even look like something religious, let alone Catholic (as I see it).
 
It is not my style of liturgy, to be sure. I have seen some modern liturgies which are not only aesthetically pleasing, but spiritually uplifting. I thought this hodge-podge, complete with clapping clergy, not only was undignified, the main thing is: productions like this generally don’t work. The crowd is much too large, to begin with. Much, too much was going on. It was chaotic. It was not unified. And for the most part, the music was horrible.

I’m not that much of a fan of liturgical dance, but as I say, in a few rare instances, when it is done carefully, and seamlessly fits into a well-planned litrugy, it can add to the spiritual dimension in a very personal way. I guess I’ve read too much OT. Generally, dancing girls remind me way too much of the worship of competing godheads, and have the general aura of paganism and an inappropriate introduction of sensuality into a prayerful setting. Combination of Protestant revival meeting, pagan dance, hootenanny, and theatre. Weird.

There were way too many people processing in. At some point, the over-participation just stops being meaningful. It felt more like one of those conventions with a million booths and tons of people walking every which way.

I guess I’m glad I don’t work as a DRE and have to put up with these liturgical fads. I have a friend who just came back from this. I wonder how she reacted to it.

I’m not a reactionary. I do appreciate tasteful, prayerful, centered contemporary liturgies, depending on the format and occasion. But this would not be one!

EDIT: Wow. Cross-posted with benedictgal, who also noticed the pagan influence. (I was thinking some kind of combo of Druid and ancient dancing such as described in the OT.)
 
The music sounded to me as though it could have been used for The Lion King. The other disconcerting thing was that flowers were used. We are in Lent. According to Paschale Solemnitatis, flowers are not allowed, unless we are in Laetare Sunday.
 
benedictgal said:
The music sounded to me as though it could have been used for The Lion King. The other disconcerting thing was that flowers were used. We are in Lent. According to Paschale Solemnitatis, flowers are not allowed, unless we are in Laetare Sunday.
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Clearly, the archdiocese of LA doesn’t care about the rubrics and what is or isn’t allowed.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
It is not my style of liturgy, to be sure. I have seen some modern liturgies which are not only aesthetically pleasing, but spiritually uplifting. I thought this hodge-podge, complete with clapping clergy, not only was undignified, the main thing is: productions like this generally don’t work. The crowd is much too large, to begin with. Much, too much was going on. It was chaotic. It was not unified. And for the most part, the music was horrible.

I’m not that much of a fan of liturgical dance, but as I say, in a few rare instances, when it is done carefully, and seamlessly fits into a well-planned litrugy, it can add to the spiritual dimension in a very personal way. I guess I’ve read too much OT. Generally, dancing girls remind me way too much of the worship of competing godheads, and have the general aura of paganism and an inappropriate introduction of sensuality into a prayerful setting. Combination of Protestant revival meeting, pagan dance, hootenanny, and theatre. Weird.

There were way too many people processing in. At some point, the over-participation just stops being meaningful. It felt more like one of those conventions with a million booths and tons of people walking every which way.

I guess I’m glad I don’t work as a DRE and have to put up with these liturgical fads. I have a friend who just came back from this. I wonder how she reacted to it.

I’m not a reactionary. I do appreciate tasteful, prayerful, centered contemporary liturgies, depending on the format and occasion. But this would not be one!

EDIT: Wow. Cross-posted with benedictgal, who also noticed the pagan influence. (I was thinking some kind of combo of Druid and ancient dancing such as described in the OT.)
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Liturgical dance has no basis in the Western Tradition. The only possible allowance for “dance” would be for indigenous tribes such as the Aztecs and the Aborigines. What happened in LA was not licit. In fact, there is no document from the CDWDS stating that this is even allowed in instances such as the Closing Mass for the LA Congress.

My pastor, I believe, was there. Unfortunately, every time he goes to this, he comes back with strange ideas. :confused: Looking at the Mass set-up, now I know how he jumped to that concept when he tried it for the room we use for Daily Mass. :eek: At least that idea died a slow and painful death.

The sound on my little netbook keeps fading in and out on the YouTube broadcast. That may be a good thing. 😃
 
My audio cuts in and out. I am watching the deacons as they enter. Are the women processing in with them their wives? If it is, this is not licit. Nowhere in the GIRM are deacons’ wives included in a procession. With all due respect to deacons’ wives, they do not serve a liturgical function (unless they are proclaiming the readings, but, even then, they do not enter alongside their husbands). This is getting “curiouser” and “curiouser.”
 
benedictgal said:
Liturgical dance has no basis in the Western Tradition. The only possible allowance for “dance” would be for indigenous tribes such as the Aztecs and the Aborigines. What happened in LA was not licit. In fact, there is no document from the CDWDS stating that this is even allowed in instances such as the Closing Mass for the LA Congress.
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I wasn’t trying to argue with anyone. 😦

I have seen some Passion stuff done to dance, and it was pretty effective, as part of a liturgical Good Friday event. (Not a Mass.) Also other events (not Masses), but few and far between. Quite few. Quite far.

I don’t know if all the people engaging in various forms of religious dance (not in L.A.) understand that it is “not licit.” Nor do I think they are doing it in some confrontational spirit, even if it is not allowed and ill-advised.

But in any case, even had there been no staged dancers, I think the rest of the liturgy was quite disjointed and gave off odd, conflicting themes.

I think the bigger issue overall, that benedictgal touched upon, is that liturgies are not free-for-alls and make-it-up-as-you-go. There are supposed to be some parameters, and it is troubling to me the large number of practicing Catholics who seem to believe that liturgy is simply creative product, as long as there’s a consecration in there. That, combined with how increasingly aware I’ve become of widespread idiotic catechesis and an opinion-driven modern Catholic morality, and it becomes difficult to see the American Church, in particular, as overall unified with Rome. I’m not specifically referring to differences of opinion on CAF, but more often within liberal parishes, in commentaries on modern Catholic periodicals, and in so many irreverent liturgical practices and behaviors.

I truly believe that there will be a very large segment of American Catholics in the foreseeable future who will choose to become formally independent of Rome, just as they have in so many ways become informally adrift from Rome. We will end up with an ultra-contemporary American Church affiliation and a quite different Roman Church affiliation.

JMO.
 
CatholicZ09 said:
This Mass seems a little irreverent to me.
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A little?

The deacon was dancing to the beat of the music and whiring around while carrying the Book of the Gospels. :eek: You don’t see that at a Papal Mass.

Its almost as though they are in a parallel universe. :confused:
 
franklinf said:
Wow. Sad.

youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw&feature=channel
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What is sad is passing judgment on the Mass, the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian life, from a YouTube video clip that shows only a fraction of what happened there.

And, given that this is the largest conference in the U.S., to seem to presume that a liturgy there would be out of line with Church teaching is really quite arrogant, I think, and does a disservice to Cardinal Mahony and all other priests and bishops who were part of or at least aware of this Eucharistic celebration.
 
benedictgal said:
A little?

The deacon was dancing to the beat of the music and whiring around while carrying the Book of the Gospels. :eek: You don’t see that at a Papal Mass.

Its almost as though they are in a parallel universe. :confused:
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It did bother me that all the ministers were dancing around the whole time. I mean, a little reverence can go a long way.

I would be really uncomfortable at that Mass.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I wasn’t trying to argue with anyone. 😦

I have seen some Passion stuff done to dance, and it was pretty effective, as part of a liturgical Good Friday event. (Not a Mass.) Also other events (not Masses), but few and far between. Quite few. Quite far.

I think the bigger issue overall, that benedictgal touched upon, is that liturgies are not free-for-alls and make-it-up-as-you-go. There are supposed to be some parameters, and it is troubling to me the large number of practicing Catholics who seem to believe that liturgy is simply creative product, as long as there’s a consecration in there. That, combined with how increasingly aware I’ve become of widespread idiotic catechesis and an opinion-driven modern Catholic morality, and it becomes difficult to see the American Church, in particular, as overall unified with Rome. I’m not specifically referring to differences of opinion on CAF, but more often within liberal parishes, in commentaries on modern Catholic periodicals, and in so many irreverent liturgical practices and behaviors.

I truly believe that there will be a very large segment of American Catholics in the foreseeable future who will choose to become formally independent of Rome, just as they have in so many ways become informally adrift from Rome. We will end up with an ultra-contemporary American Church affiliation and a quite different Roman Church affiliation.

JMO.
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However, even though the Good Friday liturgy is not a Mass, it is still a liturgy and it has rubrics. “Dancing” is not part of them.
 
diggerdomer said:
What is sad is passing judgment on the Mass, the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian life, from a YouTube video clip that shows only a fraction of what happened there.

And, given that this is the largest conference in the U.S., to seem to presume that a liturgy there would be out of line with Church teaching is really quite arrogant, I think, and does a disservice to Cardinal Mahony and all other priests and bishops who were part of or at least aware of this Eucharistic celebration.
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  1. The entire liturgy is on YouTube. There are 12 clips in total.
  2. So what if it is the largest conference? At one point the Arian heresy consumed nearly the entire Church. Would it be arrogant to presume that is out of line with Catholic teaching?
  3. Cardinal Mahony and the other priests and bishops there were the ones committing a disservice! The Mass was illicit! Liturgical dancing, glass chalices, deacons processing with their wives. The Mass was totally irreverent. The table, the dancing, the music, etc. Completely man-centered.
 
diggerdomer said:
What is sad is passing judgment on the Mass, the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian life, from a YouTube video clip that shows only a fraction of what happened there.

And, given that this is the largest conference in the U.S., to seem to presume that a liturgy there would be out of line with Church teaching is really quite arrogant, I think, and does a disservice to Cardinal Mahony and all other priests and bishops who were part of or at least aware of this Eucharistic celebration.
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Diggerdomer, with all due respect, you seem to not want to pay attention to the norms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and take a contrary view against them. This is a trend that I have seen in many of your posts in other threads.

The disservice, as I see it, based on what is on film, is done to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That this is a large conference has no bearing. In fact, it should make it all the more important to see that the norms and rubrics are followed. When things like this happen, they tend to perpetuate liturgical abuses like wildfire because people will justify their actions by stating that they are only repeating what had been done at this particular Mass.

This particular broadcast was broken down into several sections. The OP noted that vessels that have been reprobated under Redemptionis Sacramentum were used. There were also other anamolies. The venue nor the celebrant (whether it is a priest, bishop or cardinal) does not justify the fact that the norms were not followed.
 
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