LA Religion Religious Congress 2008

[I_Believe]

Did you, or people that share your same avenue of attack, ever stop and think that attitudes like this drive people away from traditionalism?

I am very much interested in learning about traditional Catholic practices, and to attend a TLM, but it’s people like you that keep me away.

I don’t mean to be insulting, but if this is the kind of elitism and sarcasm I can expect to see, I want no part of it.

You are right. I’m as guilty of it as any. But you see, if you were to assist at the TLM for the right reason, that reason being offering fitting reverence to Christ the King, the attitudes you describe wouldn’t matter. No one is going to pull you aside and make you sign an oath of allegience to Tradition.

Do you think there are not elitist attitudes in Ordinary Form parishes ? For heavens sakes, we have just had a U.S Cardinal diss the TLM as having no spiritual benefit. His name is in the title of this thread.

Look to the Bishop of Rome for guidence. Notice the appointments to high positions in the Hierarchy he is making. Stay in touch with breaking news from Rome. Did you happen to notice that Archbishop Burke was invited to pray the TLM at Wesminster Cathedral, and was forbidden to do so by a certain Bishop there who wants no part of BXVI’s Summorum Pontificum ?

Last year, when H.E.Cardinal Hoyos went to the Cathedral to pray the TLM for the first time in decades, not a single U.K. Bishop attended. Or if they did, they were in the pews along with the priests who had to dress as laity, for fear of reprisal form the “magic circle” of Bishops in the U.K.

How about the public statements made by certain Bishops, criticizing our Holy Father for lifting the excommunications of the SSPX Bishops ? Is that a show of unity and full communion with the Bishop of Rome ? Or is it the birth of a new schismatic attitude by those supposedly in full communion with Rome ?

And why not venture over to the Liturgy and Sacraments sub fora and see all of the questions about what is seen in various Ordinary Form parishes. Those questions of "can a priest do this/that ? ", and the descriptions of Liturgical abuses are not being posted by traditionalists. They are being posted by contemporary Catholics who know something isn’t quite right here and there.

In defense of our younger priests, God Bless them, some of them simply don’t know any better. They are the Catholics they were raised and taught to be. A great portion of the time since the second Vatican Council, we had John Paul II as Bishop of Rome, God Rest his soul, and now, after a few decades, we can truly take a hard look at the fruits of the changes since the Council. Pope BXVI has been there for the whole ride. There is a striking difference in the tendencies and mindsets of those JPII appointed to high positions and the ones BXVI is making. JPII gave the more liberal minded Bishops a chance, and now, clearly, Pope BXVI is giving Bishops of a more traditional mindset a chance.

But as a new Brother in Christ, please read the Summorum Pontificum, attend both forms of the Mass and draw your own conclusion as to which form is most fitting. Please don’t get caught up in all of the fuss. Instead, realize you are in a position to enter the Church with an unbiased view. Again, look to our Holy Father and follow your heart.

God Bless and welcome home

 

[bkovacs]

Bravo! I_Believe.! Good anaysis!. All valid points.

 

[bkovacs]

However, when the intergrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is attacked, then, we cannot sit idly by and have our heads in the sand and say nothing.

There is no document from the CDWDS that permits liturgical dance in the Latin Rite. Even those who try to use inculturation to justify this notion may not realize that inculturation only works in missionary lands where the Gospel has just been preached.

Jesus certainly had no qualms about throwing out the moneychangers and the animal handlers from the Temple.

You are so right!.

 

[damooster]

But as a new Brother in Christ, please read the Summorum Pontificum, attend both forms of the Mass and draw your own conclusion as to which form is most fitting. Please don’t get caught up in all of the fuss. Instead, realize you are in a position to enter the Church with an unbiased view. Again, look to our Holy Father and follow your heart.

I was at work and did not really get to elaborate on my opinions. The reason I am looking in to both forms of the Mass is because I am one of the many in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, like you mentioned, that is asking if something I witnessed was wrong. I watched the video the OP posted and was just as sad as anyone else.

I responded the way I did because the OP took a sarcastic swipe at a Priest. We’re all entitled to our opinions, but some people deserve respect regardless of if we agree with them or not. I strongly disagree with Bishop Williamson and his points of view on the Holocaust, but I would never mock him or ridicule him. I understand that Bishop Mahoney said hurtful things, but attacking him doesn’t solve anything. All new comers, like me, see is laymen taking potshots at clergy. It’s confusing. And before anyone says it, you’re not responsible for my maturation within the Catholic Church, but I do rely on these forums for guidance.

God Bless and welcome home

Thank you very much.

 

[maurin]

Don’t generalize, my friend,

why not? you did.

many of us have questioned priests at the doors of our parishes after Sunday Mass while they were greeting parishoners as to the irregularities they witnessed.

good for you:thumbsup:

The existance of irregularities doesn’t excuse arrogance on the part of those witnessing said irregularities.

the fact that “many of you have questioned priests at the doors of our parishes after Sunday Mass…as to the irregularities they witnessed” doesn’t excuse your arrogance or generalizations of “many Traditionalists.”

Maybe you should follow your own advice and not your example?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

However, when the intergrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is attacked, then, we cannot sit idly by and have our heads in the sand and say nothing.

There is no document from the CDWDS that permits liturgical dance in the Latin Rite. Even those who try to use inculturation to justify this notion may not realize that inculturation only works in missionary lands where the Gospel has just been preached.

Jesus certainly had no qualms about throwing out the moneychangers and the animal handlers from the Temple.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of liturgical dance. I also agree we cannot hide our heads in the sand. There are ways to go about it, however, and holding a priest up to mockery does not seem to me to be “tradionally” Catholic.

And Jesus was God and the Pope is His Vicar, not you and not me. It isn’t our place to cast anyone out.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

why not? you did. good for you:thumbsup:
the fact that “many of you have questioned priests at the doors of our parishes after Sunday Mass…as to the irregularities they witnessed” doesn’t excuse your arrogance or generalizations of “many Traditionalists.”

Maybe you should follow your own advice and not your example?

I made no generalizations.

C’mon, Maurin, you’re smart enough to read it for yourself, all through these threads. The arrogance and pomposity of many so-called “traditionalists” is extraordinarily off-putting and more than likely counter-productive, doing far more to harm the “type” of Catholicism that they profess to love and espouse (and the TLM) than Cardinal Mahoney had he set out to do so with a mission statement!

And if the rock doesn’t have YOUR name on it, then don’t pick it up.

As for my example, I’m aware of my own sinful nature. Fraternal correction is still an act of mercy, last I heard.

 

[I_Believe]

Bravo! I_Believe.! Good anaysis!. All valid points.

Thanks. But forget me, I’ve got a long way to go

Please pray for our Holy Father as he asked of us in his first homily as Pope. And pray a little prayer to the Holy Ghost to guide Cardinal Mahoney, in hopes he will recant what he said about the Gregorian Rite.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

But as a new Brother in Christ, please read the Summorum Pontificum, attend both forms of the Mass and draw your own conclusion as to which form is most fitting. Please don’t get caught up in all of the fuss. Instead, realize you are in a position to enter the Church with an unbiased view. Again, look to our Holy Father and follow your heart.

Our Holy Father has had good things to say about both forms. And both are equally fitting.

 

[bkovacs]

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of liturgical dance. I also agree we cannot hide our heads in the sand. There are ways to go about it, however, and holding a priest up to mockery does not seem to me to be “tradionally” Catholic.

And Jesus was God and the Pope is His Vicar, not you and not me.

You seem to forget how the liberal Germans mocked the the Pope himself a fellow German, but Vicar of Christ.

cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-and-bishop-williamson-mocked-by.html

And where was the massive outcry from Catholic clergy the world over at this. The only ones who came to his aid, were the traditionalists. I did not even read a single statement from local NO parishes to pray the Novena to Him. Only at traditionalist blogs and an email I got from the FSSP.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You seem to forget how the liberal Germans mocked the the Pope himself a fellow German, but Vicar of Christ.

cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-and-bishop-williamson-mocked-by.html

And where was the massive outcry from Catholic clergy the world over at this. The only ones who came to his aid, were the traditionalists. I did not even read a single statement from local NO parishes to pray the Novena to Him. Only at traditionalist blogs and an email I got from the FSSP.

I pray for the Holy Father daily and the Mass is offered for him daily. “Traditionalists” aren’t the only ones who prayed for him (I do not regard myself as such, merely as a Catholic). Further, as we so often teach our children, two wrongs do not make a right. As an example, I cited the case of Bishop Williamson.

 

[maurin]

I made no generalizations.

C’mon, Maurin, you’re smart enough to read it for yourself, all through these threads. The arrogance and pomposity of many so-called “traditionalists” is extraordinarily off-putting and more than likely counter-productive, doing far more to harm the “type” of Catholicism that they profess to love and espouse (and the TLM) than Cardinal Mahoney had he set out to do so with a mission statement!

And if the rock doesn’t have YOUR name on it, then don’t pick it up.

As for my example, I’m aware of my own sinful nature. Fraternal correction is still an act of mercy, last I heard.

I don’t know, Kirk. You’re a heck of a lot smarter than I am. Is that what keeps you unaware of your own generalizations, arrogance and pomposity? “Many so-called Traditionalists” is a quote from you.

 

[malphono]

…The arrogance and pomposity of many so-called “traditionalists” is extraordinarily off-putting and more than likely counter-productive, doing far more to harm the “type” of Catholicism that they profess to love and espouse (and the TLM) than Cardinal Mahoney could if he set out to do so with a mission statement!

My name’s not “on the rock” but I’m offering a comment anyway: I can agree to a point, but I have to draw the line at the last part of the statement. What a forum member might have to say is one thing, but what the Archbishop of a major see has to say publicly is something else again. The degree of damage from the former (except, perhaps, to the feelings of other forum members) is negligible, whee as that from the latter is actually a serious matter.

Just MHO.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t know, Kirk. You’re a heck of a lot smarter than I am. Is that what keeps you unaware of your own generalizations, arrogance and pomposity? “Many so-called Traditionalists” is a quote from you.

To disagree about something is not generalizing, nor is it arrogant or pompous. Point out where I’ve generalized, where I am arrogant, WHERE I am pompous. I don’t like the conference sponsored by Cardinal Mahoney any more than the rest of you.

You are engaging in an ad hominum attack, Maurin. Most unworthy. I thought you and I, when we disagreed, at least did so respectfully.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

My name’s not “on the rock” but I’m offering a comment anyway: I can agree to a point, but I have to draw the line at the last part of the statement. What a forum member might have to say is one thing, but what the Archbishop of a major see has to say publicly is something else again. The degree of damage from the former (except, perhaps, to the feelings of other forum members) is negligible, whee as that from the latter is actually a serious matter.

Just MHO.

And I agree with you, wholeheartedly. There are, however, ways to go about it and ways to NOT go about it.

 

[maurin]

To disagree about something is not generalizing, nor is it arrogant or pompous. Point out where I’ve generalized, where I am arrogant, WHERE I am pompous.

I have. Above. As a matter of fact you can scroll back up to my first post on this thread which didn’t mention quantifiable amounts of liberals. Only those who resort to character attacks. Then you respond with “Many Traditionalists.” Nope, that’s sure not a generalization, arrogant or pompous.

I don’t like the conference sponsored by Cardinal Mahoney any more than the rest of you.

good for you!

 

[maurin]

And I agree with you, wholeheartedly. There are, however, ways to go about it and ways to NOT go about it.

so your issue is, then, with the way the OP opened his post. Not with us “Many Traditionalists” who did not mock him?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I have. Above. As a matter of fact you can scroll back up to my first post on this thread which didn’t mention quantifiable amounts of liberals. Only those who resort to character attacks. Then you respond with “Many Traditionalists.” Nope, that’s sure not a generalization, arrogant or pompous. good for you!

NOT so…and I don’t know what you mean by “liberal.” As I’ve mentioned before, I’m one of the least liberal people you know. It also doesn’t apply in this instance since I don’t self-identify as either a “liberal” or a “traditionalist” (as I said, I’m simply a Catholic). I’ve made no character attacks on any person, but only made observations on a trend that likes to claim the title “traditionalist.” You’ve asserted that I, or those like me, “have no answer. they love the Church in their hearts, as they should!, and on some level they recoil at the ridiculousness of what they see, but can’t bring themselves–out of loyalty?-- to admit that there are sad deficiencies around them.” I answered to the contrary. I’m aware of the deficiencies. I’ve brought them to the attention of the priests and been ignored and walked off from, in public, in front of other people. What have YOU done?

You act as though the attitude of those calling themselves “traditionalists” is not open to question or comment? Is Bishop Williamson’s “attitude” open to question or comment? He’s a “traditionalist,” is he not? Is the Holy See, ie, the Holy Father wrong in calling him to account for an “attitude?” Yet I’ve not held him up to mockery, mindful that he is priest.

If you don’t like me, that’s fine, I’ll live. Address the argument.

 

[I_Believe]

I was at work and did not really get to elaborate on my opinions. The reason I am looking in to both forms of the Mass is because I am one of the many in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, like you mentioned, that is asking if something I witnessed was wrong. I watched the video the OP posted and was just as sad as anyone else.

I responded the way I did because the OP took a sarcastic swipe at a Priest. We’re all entitled to our opinions, but some people deserve respect regardless of if we agree with them or not. I strongly disagree with Bishop Williamson and his points of view on the Holocaust, but I would never mock him or ridicule him. I understand that Bishop Mahoney said hurtful things, but attacking him doesn’t solve anything. All new comers, like me, see is laymen taking potshots at clergy. It’s confusing. And before anyone says it, you’re not responsible for my maturation within the Catholic Church, but I do rely on these forums for guidance.

Thank you very much.

Quite welcome

You are right. We shouldn’t mock priests. We should pray for those who fall into error.

As far as Bishop Williamson, there is a difference though. Questioning accepted historical facts is not like dissing the most precious treasure of the Church. Big difference in blatant political incorrectness and flirting with heresy. But…

We’ve all got to pray for Papa though. He’s inherited a mess. He knows he can’t just jerk the Novus Ordo out from under those who have have been raised on it. We can see what resulted from the same being done to those raised on the TLM.

I trust him on this. He’s aware the internet has layed it all on the table for all Catholics to see. He’s doing what he can, as we see by his appointments to high positions, and really, the future and solution to this mess is in the hands of our young priests. They are our future Bishops and Cardinals. And one of them will be the Bishop of Rome some day.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

so your issue is, then, with the way the OP opened his post. Not with us “Many Traditionalists” who did not mock him?

Oh, no, I believe that very many “traditionalists” are exactly what I said and I believe that they are harming their own cause FAR more than poor Cardinal Mahoney ever could. But then, I also said, if your name isn’t on the rock, don’t pick it up (ie, if it doesn’t apply to you). Which “traditionalists” can I question? Just the Dimond brothers? Pope Pius XIII? Pope Michael? Or any of them who are factually wrong or, in this instance, irreverent toward one of Christ’s priests?