LA Religion Religious Congress 2008

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We’ve all got to pray for Papa though. He’s inherited a mess. He knows he can’t just jerk the Novus Ordo out from under those who have have been raised on it. We can see what resulted from the same being done to those raised on the TLM.

I trust him on this. He’s aware the internet has layed it all on the table for all Catholics to see. He’s doing what he can, as we see by his appointments to high positions, and really, the future and solution to this mess is in the hands of our young priests. They are our future Bishops and Cardinals. And one of them will be the Bishop of Rome some day.
But we shouldn’t make bank one way or the other on what the Holy Father will do. If what he has said is any indication, organic development will take place and it is very unlikely that the OF(which he has also praised) or the EF will EVER completely go away.
 
NOT so…and I don’t know what you mean by “liberal.” As I’ve mentioned before, I’m one of the least liberal people you know. It also doesn’t apply in this instance since I don’t self-identify as either a “liberal” or a “traditionalist” (as I said, I’m simply a Catholic). I’ve made no character attacks on any person, but only made observations on a trend that likes to claim the title “traditionalist.” You’ve asserted that I, or those like me, “have no answer. they love the Church in their hearts, as they should!, and on some level they recoil at the ridiculousness of what they see, but can’t bring themselves–out of loyalty?-- to admit that there are sad deficiencies around them.” I answered to the contrary. I’m aware of the deficiencies. I’ve brought them to the attention of the priests and been ignored and walked off from, in public, in front of other people. What have YOU done?

You act as though the attitude of those calling themselves “traditionalists” is not open to question or comment? Is Bishop Williamson’s “attitude” open to question or comment? He’s a “traditionalist,” is he not? Is the Holy See, ie, the Holy Father wrong in calling him to account for an “attitude?” Yet I’ve not held him up to mockery, mindful that he is priest.

If you don’t like me, that’s fine, I’ll live. Address the argument.
First of all Kirk, let’s stick on topic. Can’t we? I like you very much, I think you are quite intelligent, and no, I do not think that YOU are a liberal. I was referring–I thought I had made that clear–to my first post on thread. Which was an answer to a question about why do many posters resort to character assasination. Which argument are you having? Because from there you responded along the lines that I am smarter than mere generalizations. You went on to blast the pomposity and arrogance of “Many Traditionalists”. The pot calling the kettle generalizations?

None of us are immune from “attitude,” Kirk. Neither are you-- nor am I. But if you are unable to recognize your own, that’s fine, I’ll live too.
 
Oh, no, I believe that very many “traditionalists” are exactly what I said and I believe that they are harming their own cause FAR more than poor Cardinal Mahoney ever could. But then, I also said, if your name isn’t on the rock, don’t pick it up (ie, if it doesn’t apply to you).
no generalizations, huh?
Which “traditionalists” can I question?
the ones you have an issue with. not with all of us, please. or maybe just qualify your “Many Traditionalists”. could you do that?
Or any of them who are factually wrong or, in this instance, irreverent toward one of Christ’s priests?
yeah, like that.
 
First of all Kirk, let’s stick on topic. Can’t we? I like you very much, I think you are quite intelligent, and no, I do not think that YOU are a liberal. I was referring–I thought I had made that clear–to my first post on thread. Which was an answer to a question about why do many posters resort to character assasination. Which argument are you having? Because from there you responded along the lines that I am smarter than mere generalizations. You went on to blast the pomposity and arrogance of “Many Traditionalists”. The pot calling the kettle generalizations?

None of us are immune from “attitude,” Kirk. Neither are you-- nor am I. But if you are unable to recognize your own, that’s fine, I’ll live too.
No one assasinated ANYONE’S character, AT ANY POINT. POINT OUT WHERE THIS HAPPENED!
 
No one assasinated ANYONE’S character, AT ANY POINT. POINT OUT WHERE THIS HAPPENED!
sorry, “character attacks.” make that “character attacks.” You did go back and read the post to which my first post answered, didn’t you?

can we stop this pettiness now? huh? please? can we? and stick to the conversation we’re having? huh? please?
 
no generalizations, huh? the ones you have an issue with. not with all of us, please. or maybe just qualify your “Many Traditionalists”. could you do that?
yeah, like that.
Why don’t you just make it easy and eschew the title “traditionalist,” vis a vis *Beatissimi Apostolorum? *That would be, well, pretty traditional.

Like I said, if the rock doesn’t have your name on it, you should be able to say, “Oh, well, Kirk’s not talking about ME.”
 
Why don’t you just make it easy and eschew the title “traditionalist,” vis a vis *Beatissimi Apostolorum? *That would be, well, pretty traditional.

Like I said, if the rock doesn’t have your name on it, you should be able to say, “Oh, well, Kirk’s not talking about ME.”
I’m sorry, Kirk, but you accused me–and continue to do so-- of doing something you yourself do. “Many Traditionalists” is a phrase taken out of many of your posts–both the generalization and the moniker.

let’s get over it now, ok?
 
No one assasinated ANYONE’S character, AT ANY POINT. POINT OUT WHERE THIS HAPPENED!
You attack the character of our identiy everytime you generalize us, toss in a box and make sweeping generalizations. To generalize traditionalists as the way you do is to make a claim against all those who hold to this identity. Talking about us in generalities doesn’t make it better and it certainly doesn’t help when you do this out of one side of your mouth and out of the other side tell us not to “generalize”.

Put it this way, when one generalizes about Christians are we not all offended? Sure we realize how stupid and meaningless those generalizations are, but you seem keen on holding on to the generalizations that you’ve made.

I for one, haven’t said anything about his Eminence, ever. Yet you keep on saying “so called traditionalists…”

And it certainly doesn’t take a high IQ to realize this.
 
I’m sorry, Kirk, but you accused me–and continue to do so-- of doing something you yourself do. “Many Traditionalists” is a phrase taken out of many of your posts–both the generalization and the moniker.

let’s get over it now, ok?
Gotta stand by it. Many “traditionalists” have a tone and an attitude that is off-putting and may well do their ultimate aspirations more harm than good. You can argue against that statement, if you wish, ie, you can prove that many “traditionalists” do NOT have a tone and an attitude that is off-putting and counter productive. OR you could say that you don’t fall under the category of “many.” I haven’t made a generalization that cannot be backed up by the most cursory exam of the threads in the Traditional Forum…not each and every one, mind you, but lots of them. I’ve never said “each and every” “traditionalist,” simply because that would be foolish.
 
Our Holy Father has had good things to say about both forms. And both are equally fitting.
But we shouldn’t make bank one way or the other on what the Holy Father will do. If what he has said is any indication, organic development will take place and it is very unlikely that the OF(which he has also praised) or the EF will EVER completely go away.
:rolleyes:

Papa’s shoes may be red as roses, but his glasses aren’t.
“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy” (Milestones, page 148).
I’ve never been to Nevada. But I’ve heard there is a lot of sand out that way. Is that true ?
 
You attack the character of our identiy everytime you generalize us, toss in a box and make sweeping generalizations. To generalize traditionalists as the way you do is to make a claim against all those who hold to this identity. Talking about us in generalities doesn’t make it better and it certainly doesn’t help when you do this out of one side of your mouth and out of the other side tell us not to “generalize”.
I have not generalized. I’ve been accused of it, but I have not done so. This is what I said:

"Granted, the irregularities at Cardinal Mahoney’s conference are serious. That doesn’t set aside the legitimacy of the “accusation.” The OP makes fun of the term “instilled with Christ!” as it regards the Conference (not all of which may be irregular). This implies that HE or SHE knows what it means to be “instilled with Christ,” an arrogant attitude frequently exhibited by so-called “traditionalists.” So it was a perfectly cogent observation on the part of the second poster."


**I stand by it in regards to the second poster’s complaint. **

I for one, haven’t said anything about his Eminence, ever. Yet you keep on saying “so called traditionalists…” They self-identify as such.
And it certainly doesn’t take a high IQ to realize this.
**We’ll agree to give thanks that one doesn’t have to be too bright to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. **
 
:rolleyes:

Papa’s shoes may be red as roses, but his glasses aren’t.

I’ve never been to Nevada. But I’ve heard there is a lot of sand out that way. Is that true ?
Read His Holiness’ MP that you yourself rec. to another poster and what he had to say there regarding the OF. :rolleyes:

Yes, we’ve plenty of sand, but it’s far too hot for us to stick our heads into it.
 
Gotta stand by it. Many “traditionalists” have a tone and an attitude that is off-putting and may well do their ultimate aspirations more harm than good. You can argue against that statement, if you wish, ie, you can prove that many “traditionalists” do NOT have a tone and an attitude that is off-putting and counter productive. OR you could say that you don’t fall under the category of “many.” I haven’t made a generalization that cannot be backed up by the most cursory exam of the threads in the Traditional Forum…not each and every one, mind you, but lots of them. I’ve never said “each and every” “traditionalist,” simply because that would be foolish.
your posts say much more about your own arrogance, pomposity and attitude, then they do about “many Traditionalists.”

you are exactly what you are complaining about.
 
your posts say much more about your own arrogance, pomposity and attitude, then they do about “many Traditionalists.”

you are exactly what you are complaining about.
Sorry, I stand by what I said. As I mentioned, a cursory examination of the threads in this forum, etc., etc.
 
Read His Holiness’ MP that you yourself rec. to another poster and what he had to say there regarding the OF. :rolleyes:

Yes, we’ve plenty of sand, but it’s far too hot for us to stick our heads into it.
I have read it, and doesn’t the fact that I suggested someone read it kind of prove your sole intention is to argue ?

Here you go: Red is a wonderful color !

Your turn.
("waiting for you to say "but blue is just as wonderful ! ")

If this thread bugs you so much, why do you keep bumping it to the top ?
 
I have read it, and doesn’t the fact that I suggested someone read it kind of prove your sole intention is to argue ?

Here you go: Red is a wonderful color !

Your turn.
("waiting for you to say "but blue is just as wonderful ! ")

If this thread bugs you so much, why do you keep bumping it to the top ?
No, it doesn’t. You maintain a certain stance to the OF that is not supported by what the Holy Father said in Summorum Pontificum. That’s what I’m addressing.

Because error is error and fraternal correction is, last I heard, an act of mercy. That’s why lots of regular old Catholics hang out in this forum.
 
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