Labor pains and original sin

[Cathoholic]

on_the_hill . . . .

I don’t understand why it would have to be dogma that Mary’s virginity was preserved even though she gave birth.

There are several reasons.

One is the fulfilling of prophecy.

It is prophesied that a virgin and young woman (the Hebrew word for “young woman” means both young woman AND virgin used in this way), will conceive a son.

But the prophecy does not stop there.

It says that this virgin will BEAR a son.

So there is your VIRGIN, even in the act of childbearing.

ISAIAH 7:14 (RSVCE) 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman′u-el.

.

ISAIAH 7:14 (DRV) 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold
a virgin shall conceive, and bear
a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

 

[Inbonum]

Okay, l didn’t know that they are unapproved. As l remember in book l have is written they are authentic and approved even though they’re written by Clemens (biography of bl.Anna written by Thomas Wegener).

But l didn’t check anything more, so, my apologies.

 

[EndTimes]

In Scriptures - Virginity - refers to sexual intercourse… and not to anything occurring during ChildBirth.

Mary to Angel Gabriel – Two translations of the original.

A • " And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? "

B. • " How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” "

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

In Scriptures - Virginity - refers to sexual intercourse… and not to anything occurring during ChildBirth.

True in what it asserts.

False in what it denies.

ISAIAH 7:14 (DRV) 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold
a virgin shall conceive, and bear
a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

 

[EndTimes]

In Scriptures - Virginity - refers to sexual intercourse… and not to anything occurring during ChildBirth.

Of course…

 

[Stradabolt]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. So far what has made the most sense to me is the idea that the woman in Revelation 12 was giving birth to the Church, just as Mary was suffering at the cross when she was becoming the “mother” of John, and also all of us.

 

[EndTimes]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. So far what has made the most sense to me is the idea that the woman in Revelation 12 was giving birth to the Church, just as Mary was suffering at the cross when she was becoming the “mother” of John, and also all of us.

And… the core of the Church is Jesus. the Head of the Body of Christ - aka THE Church

 

[Bruce_Killian]

So, why was the woman in Revelation 12 wailing aloud in pain as she labored to give birth?

The Blessed Mother had no pain giving birth to Jesus, but both Jesus and Mary were in intense pain giving birth to the Church.

 

[EndTimes]

The Blessed Mother had no pain giving birth to Jesus

How do you know that?

 

[Bruce_Killian]

The Blessed Mother had no pain giving birth to Jesus

God promised pain in childbirth to the woman in the garden of Eden because of their sin. In the garden the man and woman were holy until they sinned. Mary was promised that the child born to her would be holy implying that she was restored to the state of original holiness. After the fall every birth except Mary’s giving birth to Jesus was unclean and required purification before one could enter the holy place. So Gabriel’s words to Mary mean she was in the original state of holiness like woman in the garden so she did not have any pain in childbirth.

 

[EndTimes]

Mary was promised that the child born to her would be holy implying that she was restored to the state of original holiness.

You’re going to have to expound upon that contention…
and show how it connects with pain at ChildBirth?

 

[Bruce_Killian]

You’re going to have to expound upon that contention…
and show how it connects with pain at ChildBirth?

One could answer the best answers, like the ones Jesus gave always would require one search out the meaning. While we are no longer under the law one of the instructions of the law was the priest were to Leviticus 10:10 RSV You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean;

Job asked, Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. [only God can do that]

Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have done violence to my law and have profaned my holy things; they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they taught the difference between the unclean and the clean, …

Leviticus 12:2 "Say to the people of Israel, If a woman conceives, and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

Since the garden in Eden was a temple no one in the garden was ever unclean, e.g. had a period.

I did an article on the Immaculate Conception that delves into some of this see The Immaculate Conception
Grace and peace, Bruce

 

[EndTimes]

Since the garden in Eden was a temple no one in the garden was ever unclean, e.g. had a period.

Non-Sequitur // Non-Applicable.

There were 4 in Eden… God, Satan, Adam and Eve…

Recall . Adam and Eve were banished from Eden

That’s when ‘things’ changed for ManKind .

Even Mary died // Dormition…

_

 

[Benadam]

“I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;

Even though birth pangs had yet to be experienced can we assume there would have been some lesser pangs? What are pangs? How is that different than pain? The next sentence sounds like there wouldn’t have been pain in bringing forth children.

in pain you shall bring forth children,

That makes sense since after the fall children enter a world of sin and death.

 

[EndTimes]

“I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;

Even though birth pangs had yet to be experienced can we assume there would have been some lesser pangs? What are pangs? How is that different than pain? The next sentence sounds like there wouldn’t have been pain in bringing forth children.

in pain you shall bring forth children,

That makes sense since after the fall children enter a world of sin and death.

sounds as if pang and pain sound alike and mean alike.

And having them is a part of our very human condition - even as Jesus experienced.

Mary experience pangs of grief at our Lord’s Crucifixion…

For what actual reason
would some attempt to rearrange any physical aspect of ChildBirth

• other than the Truth that GOD is our Lord’s Father?
• and Mary was a Virgin in the sense that no human made her pregnant

Were Mary to not have this or that -
that would have been additional Miracle(s)
which should have received mention… yes?

_

 

[Benadam]

sounds as if pang and pain sound alike and mean alike.

And having them is a part of our very human condition - even as Jesus experienced.

Mary experience pangs of grief at our Lord’s Crucifixion…

For what actual reason
would some attempt to rearrange any physical aspect of ChildBirth

• other than the Truth that GOD is our Lord’s Father?
• and Mary was a Virgin in the sense that no human made her pregnant

Were Mary to not have this or that -
that would have been additional Miracle(s)
which should have received mention… yes?

The ancient mind required that physical proof but it’s obviously not proof in reality.

I’m open to a miraculous physical rearrangement at Christ’s birth since that’s what happened at His conception.
I don’t think it’s necessary and I know there was no one to doubt her virginity at the time. I can’t imagine anyone daring to need that proof later on.

I may be unorthodox in thinking this but I tend to believe that Our Lady consented to bare Eve’s punishment to it’s fullest by consenting to be the Mother of Our Saviour.

 

[EndTimes]

I’m open to a miraculous physical rearrangement at Christ’s birth since that’s what happened at His conception.

OKAY…

And I virtually never concern my self with that wonderment.
As It’s not connected w/my Faith in Jesus.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

Non-Sequitur // Non-Applicable.

Menstruation is part of the pain of childbirth, so it is relevant and applicable. It is required for a woman to be fertile after fall and conception depends on it, but it made one unclean and since Jesus was born holy, Mary was also holy so not unclean. As pain in child birth was the result of the fall, Mary had not pain in giving birth to Jesus.

 

[EndTimes]

Menstruation is part of the pain of childbirth, so it is relevant and applicable. It is required for a woman to be fertile after fall and conception depends on it, but it made one unclean and since Jesus was born holy, Mary was also holy so not unclean. As pain in child birth was the result of the fall, Mary had not pain in giving birth to Jesus.

Is this nothing more than a personal string of ‘logic’ ?

OR - Is this Catholic Magisterium? i.e, Required Belief?

 

[Cathoholic]

Bruce_Killian . . .

The Blessed Mother had no pain giving birth to Jesus

.

You are absolutely correct Bruce_Killian.

.

CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.