F
FightingFat
Guest
To what extent do you feel the accusation that the christain idea of the Trinity is fundementally flawed due to its denial of the feminine is valid?
- Status
A
Axion
Guest
Interesting question.
It’s hard to call the Trinity “flawed”, but there is an imbalance. Holy Wisdom has a strongly feminine aspect, which has been associated with both the Holy Spirit and Mary, but in the New testament, the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit is not stressed
It’s hard to call the Trinity “flawed”, but there is an imbalance. Holy Wisdom has a strongly feminine aspect, which has been associated with both the Holy Spirit and Mary, but in the New testament, the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit is not stressed
R
Reepicheep
Guest
“Denial of the feminine”?
In what way does the concept of the Holy Trinity “deny the feminine”?
In what way does the concept of the Holy Trinity “deny the feminine”?
A
awalt
Guest
Excerpted from Catholic News Agency:
First of all, the Church refers to herself in the feminine form. The Church is our Mother.
She is the Bride of Christ. Her femininity comes from her willingness to receive the love of God and bear it forth for the world to see. This feminine receptivity is something to be prized. Both men and women are called to imitate the Church’s receptivity to God’s love.
We can also look at the Church’s devotion to Mary as proof of her appreciation for the feminine. Mary too is our Mother and Mirror of the Church. She is the Queen of heaven and earth. Mary models perfect obedience, exudes the feminine genius, and is an image of holiness for all of her children.
Finally, the Church honors the feminine by recognizing the numerous female saints found throughout Church history, most especially Mary Magdalene! The Church sees her as one of the greatest female saints in Catholic tradition. Originally possessed by seven demons, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as one of the individuals most tormented by sin.
With sincere repentance and God’s grace, she experiences a profound conversion and remains faithful to Christ up until His death on the Cross. The Church even refers to Mary Magdalene as the “apostle to the apostles” since she was the first to see the resurrected Christ and take the good news to the others.
First of all, the Church refers to herself in the feminine form. The Church is our Mother.
She is the Bride of Christ. Her femininity comes from her willingness to receive the love of God and bear it forth for the world to see. This feminine receptivity is something to be prized. Both men and women are called to imitate the Church’s receptivity to God’s love.
We can also look at the Church’s devotion to Mary as proof of her appreciation for the feminine. Mary too is our Mother and Mirror of the Church. She is the Queen of heaven and earth. Mary models perfect obedience, exudes the feminine genius, and is an image of holiness for all of her children.
Finally, the Church honors the feminine by recognizing the numerous female saints found throughout Church history, most especially Mary Magdalene! The Church sees her as one of the greatest female saints in Catholic tradition. Originally possessed by seven demons, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as one of the individuals most tormented by sin.
With sincere repentance and God’s grace, she experiences a profound conversion and remains faithful to Christ up until His death on the Cross. The Church even refers to Mary Magdalene as the “apostle to the apostles” since she was the first to see the resurrected Christ and take the good news to the others.
F
FightingFat
Guest
Nice find Awalt- not sure this deals with the issue though; wouldn’t we all agree that the Catholic idea of the human person is grounded in the idea that we are made “in the image and likeness of God” [CCC355] How do we know what that image is is? Well, that fact is we have an image of God to work on. That image is the Trinity, and we are trinitarian beings, as defined as early as Plato, who centralised his view of the person on the idea of a tripartite soul.
So where is the femininity in this image of the human person- Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the love that surround them.
So where is the femininity in this image of the human person- Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the love that surround them.
F
FightingFat
Guest
In the way that it appears to consist of three blokes. Unless you know different?
:ehh:
P
porkscratchings
Guest
Where in the NT does it assign a gender to holy wisdom (this phrase itself is not biblical)?
C
corvidae
Guest
I don’t know about in the new testament, but in the old there are plenty of places,
Most notably Sirach, and Proverbs
A lone Raven
Most notably Sirach, and Proverbs
A lone Raven
M
mosher
Guest
The argument is flawed because it assumes that the Trinity expressed masculinity. This is not correct in that God has no gender apart from Christ. The use of the term he and father is only a matter of a relational understanding and does not speak to an ontological reality in God. So, in effect there is no masculine nor feminine in God as those are attributes that are proper to humans but not to the angels or God - apart from Christ. Further, it is an issue of revelation that this is the proper understanding of that relation and is thus not subject to revision or confusion.
F
FightingFat
Guest
I like the ontological point you make- our understanding of God is always limited by our lack of understanding; all we can know is what God has revealed to us and so it makes sense that we should accept revelation and our lack of understanding of it. The language we habitually use- Father- Son- may not encompass fully what it is to be God…We could look at this another way and say that because of the way things are explained to us through the book of Genesis, God is fully male & fully female and only in our humanity did we crave division in order to compliment each other through the sanctity of marriage- the desire to give yourself to another as God desires to give himself to us…
It still begs the question though don’t you think? I mean, if God entered into his creation and fully experienced it through Christ, he didn’t experience being a woman did he?
It still begs the question though don’t you think? I mean, if God entered into his creation and fully experienced it through Christ, he didn’t experience being a woman did he?
R
rider
Guest
Fighting Fat, how do you figure that the Trinity DENIES the feminine???
E
estesbob
Guest
How does the Trinity deny the feminine??? I think the accusation is fatally flawed to begin with.
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Fighting Fat,
I realize you’re not doubting the Trinity or anything, just asking a question.
I sort of understand it in light of the Theology of the Body. We are made in the image of God. We are made male and female.
**
Maleness itself is not the imago dei. Femaleness itself is not the imago dei. It takes both. **
Probably it has come across in a more masculine oriented way, maybe intentionally, maybe not. Perhaps it could be attributed to the fact that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us as a male person. That and the “Father” term. Not that it’s a bad term. It’s just we have our cultural conditioning to understand it a certain way that limits our comprehending the Divine.
God the Father is referred to as “the first principle of life” in the Trinity. The Son receives the love of the Father, and recriprocates it back to the Father. The “eternal result” of their shared love is the Person of the Holy Spirit. That’s old school Catholic theology, nothing new there. So in that way, the SON seems to be a major part of the female “identity” of the Trinity.
It has more to do with loving as God loves than it does with gender. Oh no!! Please, don’t anyone get off topic on homosexuality because of what I said!
But I’m sort of new to the Theology of the Body, and so I can’t say much more on it than that. Hope that helps.
I realize you’re not doubting the Trinity or anything, just asking a question.
I sort of understand it in light of the Theology of the Body. We are made in the image of God. We are made male and female.
**
Maleness itself is not the imago dei. Femaleness itself is not the imago dei. It takes both. **
Probably it has come across in a more masculine oriented way, maybe intentionally, maybe not. Perhaps it could be attributed to the fact that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us as a male person. That and the “Father” term. Not that it’s a bad term. It’s just we have our cultural conditioning to understand it a certain way that limits our comprehending the Divine.
God the Father is referred to as “the first principle of life” in the Trinity. The Son receives the love of the Father, and recriprocates it back to the Father. The “eternal result” of their shared love is the Person of the Holy Spirit. That’s old school Catholic theology, nothing new there. So in that way, the SON seems to be a major part of the female “identity” of the Trinity.
It has more to do with loving as God loves than it does with gender. Oh no!! Please, don’t anyone get off topic on homosexuality because of what I said!
But I’m sort of new to the Theology of the Body, and so I can’t say much more on it than that. Hope that helps.
F
FightingFat
Guest
OK guys, please enlighten me!
I think the accusation arises from the fact that the Trinity consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; not Father, Mother and Holy Spirit, or indeed Father, Daughter and Holy Spirit. The feminine could be seen to not be represented in that wouldn’t you agree?
F
FightingFat
Guest
Some interesting ideas- thanks!
M
mosher
Guest
Properly understood we are the feminine. This again has to do with multiple relational issues.
First against pantheism. Creation is not a part of God but rather is completely other than God but yet it is His creation and is sustained by His power. This is similar to the relationship between father and child as opposed to child and mother from who the child takes his flesh. But with God we do not share in His nature in that way.
Second, femininity is identified with receptivity. God does not receive anything as He is complete. Rather we received all things from Him. For this reason He is completely oriented to a masculine relationship.
The distribution of Grace is in effect an insemination of the world with the power of God. This is also a masculine relation.
I would also say that there is a minor flaw in your interpretation of God expressing both the fullness of what it is to be male & female. Rather it is more correct to say that he expresses neither. However, He relates to all of creation in a way that itself relates to masculinity not maleness.
Also, on your last point the fact that Jesus came into the world as a man teaches us something about human nature. It teaches us that in relation to God being male or female ceases to have meaning. It is only in the mutual relationship between man and man (male and female) that gender takes on a significant meaning.
L
Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
“Christianity is not a philosophical speculation; it is not a construction of our mind. Christianity is not “our” work; it is Revelation…and we have no right to reconstruct it. Consquently we are not authorized to change Our Father into *Our Mother; *the symbolism used by Jesus irreversible, it is based on the same Man-God relationship he came to reveal to us:”
–Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Now His Holiness Bendict XVI) from The Ratzinger Report 1985, Ignatius Press
I
Isidore_AK
Guest
Why do you think that “the feminine” needs to be represented in the Holy Trinity?
How about we accept the Wisdom of Holy Mother Church and just deal with it? MmmK?
How about we accept the Wisdom of Holy Mother Church and just deal with it? MmmK?
F
FightingFat
Guest
Because it might be wrong!Why do you think that “the feminine” needs to be represented in the Holy Trinity?
How about we accept the Wisdom of Holy Mother Church and just deal with it? MmmK?
(have you never met any JW’s or Mormons or Baptists??? They all accept without question and they’re not Catholic!!!) and also God gave me this enormous brain for a reason, and because all this talk of faith and reason post Regensburg stimulates my juices, and because I’m an aspiring theologist and theology is fides quaerens intellectum!!!
I
Isidore_AK
Guest
I think I’ll stick with 2000 years of Catholic Tradition, thank you…
- Status