Lack of security in salvation

[Timothy_Piper]

Hi Piper. Welcome to CAF. The bolded phrase above is about the only thing credible in all of the posts you’ve offered thus far. Stick around awhile…Read a bit before responding…soak it in, carefully so as not to presume what someone believes, or concludes, or what their relationship with Christ truly is. We welcome your dialogue, but we just would want you to get off on the right foot here. Try to remember here that this is Catholic Answers…not Catholic Myth-busters. Ask yourself a hard question before you continue here…are you here to learn what we believe, or refute what you think we believe?

For example…you said “if this person [guanophore] has 15K posts and believes he can separate himself from the love of God, then let him alone”

Now…watch closely…here’s Guan’s post you’re referring to…watch the bold…

You claim he said something which he did not. Strike one. The point guan’s making is in his last phrase, that being loved by God does not necessarily result in eternal security. If you’d like to address that, then that would be satisfactory.

Blessings to you, and let us know how we can help you learn our faith. Guan himself is particularly skilled in that department.

You are very gracious. However; God only sets His love on those who set there love on Christ; so to say that being loved by God does not equate to eternal security is a fallacy. I saw exactly what he wrote, but I really do appreciate you being very gracious and pointing to something you thought I had overlooked, which I’m positive will happen, but not in this case.

John 8 - Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. - verse 42

Romans 5 But ***God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ***- verse 8

Romans 8 - 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that ***all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ***

Ephesians 2 - But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath ***quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ***

This is one of my favorites and i hope it will be yours as well.

Titus 3 - But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, ***but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; ***6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

There is so much more I could share concerning the love He has set on His own and the eternal promises He gives to those whom Christ died…praise God and be thankful for the Savior Jesus Christ…amen.

 

[guanophore]

I personally believe that ex-Calvinist s like Atkins and Hahn converting to the Catholic Faith can only do this by rejecting sola scriptura. However, I believe if we stay within the Scriptures, then the truth of TULIP will be revealed to all who hold to Scripture as the supreme rule of faith for life and doctrine.

Yes, I think you are right. It is not possible to convert if one holds to Sola Scriptura.

It is quite possible to “stay within the Scriptures” without forcing them into a role they were never intended to have.

TULIP is outside the boundaries of the Apostolic Teaching, therefore, one must go outside of the Scripture to find it. Sola Scriptura is the first and most fatal of going outside the Scirptures.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Thank you for the kind words brother. I have enjoyed your posts tremendously. Are you related to John Piper?

I cannot confirm nor deny…just kidding. Not that I am aware of; I believe he is in Minneapolis, MN and to my knowledge I do not have any relatives there, but hey we are all related to each other.

He seems to have wide reaching ministries and a great deal of real and free resources. i wish i could find the same type of free resources from Dr. David Jerimiah - perhaps you have heard him teach?

God bless and Happy and thankful “gobble-as-much-as-possible-day”.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

No, this is not true Vimy. What has happened is that the Reformers departed from the Apostolic Teaching on the nature of salvation. Since they taught that our salvation is not completed in this life, then it is more correct to say that one fails to be united with their heavenly inheritance. There are some apects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some which we work out during our life here, and some that are completed at the end of this life.

You conclusion is also false. The ability to be separated from a free gift does not make it any less a free gift. Some people choose to leave their gift by the wayside.

You are confused; we are sanctified - set apart for God (positionally), we are being sanctified (growing in Christ) and will be sanctified (glorified). It is god who justifies and sanctifies and glorifies and “He who began a good work, WILL COMPLETE it till the day of Jesus” - This is an eternal promise from start to finish. that is what Jesus and the apostles and the writers and the prophets taught and it is you that have departed form the apostolic teachings as revealed in Scripture.

I just can’t help but think you have such a hardened heart that if Jesus or one of the apostles were in front of you and told you the same truth you would not accept it; i hope I am wrong.

Listen to the writer of Hebrews and devote yourself to some mediation on these passages when you have some extra time and see how the HS will work in you.

Hebrews 2 - 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 ***For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, *** 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

God bless and I pray for your spiritual journey may be full and complete in Christ.
Timothy

 

[SteveGC]

You are very gracious. However; God only sets His love on those who set there love on Christ; so to say that being loved by God does not equate to eternal security is a fallacy. I saw exactly what he wrote, but I really do appreciate you being very gracious and pointing to something you thought I had overlooked, which I’m positive will happen, but not in this case.

John 8 - Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. - verse 42

Romans 5 But ***God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ***- verse 8

Romans 8 - 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that ***all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ***

Ephesians 2 - But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath ***quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ***

This is one of my favorites and i hope it will be yours as well.

Titus 3 - But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, ***but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; ***6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

There is so much more I could share concerning the love He has set on His own and the eternal promises He gives to those whom Christ died…praise God and be thankful for the Savior Jesus Christ…amen.

Hmm…looks like you’ve chosen poorly when answering my question: “Ask yourself a hard question before you continue here…are you here to learn what we believe, or refute what you think we believe?”. You’ve clearly chosen the latter. Are you at all interested in our beliefs, or not, Piper?

As for your Scripture quotes, I love those verses. Shame we understand them differently. None of them point to an inevitable guarantee of eternal life in heaven. You might want to look up a thread or two on “once saved - always saved”, where you’ll find compelling evidence that our eternal destination is actually determined at the end of our earthly lives, not in the middle of them…where you’ll also see that salvation is a lifelong process, not a one-time proclamation. None of this negates assurance and confidence in salvation, Piper. It simply negates absolute, inevitably guaranteed, assurance of it.

As for your claim that you understood guanophore, I wonder still why you would say “if he believes he can separate himself from the love of God”, when he clearly said “Nothing can separate us from His love”.

Perhaps you didn’t mean to say this. I’m guessing you meant to say “if he thinks God’s love doesn’t equate to eternal security…etc etc…” ? I was simply reacting to what you actually wrote.

Again, welcome.

p.s. coming across as some sort of pious spiritual guidance counselor to faithful, extremely devout Catholics on this forum is going to get you nowhere. We’ve found Christ in His absolute fullness, Piper. The Catholic Church is the essence of Christ, it is fully and completely Christocentric. You can spare us the “your heart is hardened” and “come to Christ” banter.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hi Timothy Piper and welcome to the discussion!
Thank you for your comments. How very interesting that you read that section of Scripture and arrive at the conclusion that I have it “completely backwards”! I do not consider myself very smart nor spiritually advanced, but I have been around the block a few, times as they say. Perhaps you are new to apologetics? So I would very much like to hear what you have to say in response to what I have said. Given that we are having this exchange in the context of an apologetics forum I am open to hearing your reasoning and defense of your position. Please be advised, however, that opinions stated without support based merely on your personal testimony cannot be considered any more valid than any other persons claims based on their personal opinions. I feel like you rejected my analysis of Paul’s comments without addressing any of the points I brought up. The main thrust of my position is as follows:
**Paul wouldnt “warn” the believers about such behaviors if they did not have the potential to exclude them from the kingdom of Heaven. ** And he does warn them - repeatedly on this very point in 1 Cor 6, Ephesians 5, and in his letter to the Galatians. As far as my simple mind can tell you did nothing to address this point. You did ask some questions, but I recommend you also supply the answers which allow us to see how those answers refute my position.

Blessings!

I may have misunderstood your position; this is what i believe you were trying to confer; that 1 Cor and Eph 5 is Paul warning Christians that they could loose their salvation if they change to the behavior described. If I am correct in that assumption, which you should let me know if I am not, then you are not correct. I Corinthians, Pauls restates the lsit in Ephesians and says, such were some of you; the implication is you were like this before you were saved, now you are not so walk and live like a Christian. I also believe this would have been read to a group of both believers and nonbelievers and a warning to non-believers who may have been influenced by the false teachers which are in the paragraphs either before or after.

Anyway, thanks for the gracious welcome, much appreciated and glad to be here, My etiquette obviously needs some polishing.

God bless.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hmm…looks like you’ve chosen poorly when answering my question: “Ask yourself a hard question before you continue here…are you here to learn what we believe, or refute what you think we believe?”. You’ve clearly chosen the latter. Are you at all interested in our beliefs, or not, Piper?

As for your Scripture quotes, I love those verses. Shame we understand them differently. None of them point to an inevitable guarantee of eternal life in heaven. You might want to look up a thread or two on “once saved - always saved”, where you’ll find compelling evidence that our eternal destination is actually determined at the end of our earthly lives, not in the middle of them…where you’ll also see that salvation is a lifelong process, not a one-time proclamation. None of this negates assurance and confidence in salvation, Piper. It simply negates absolute, inevitably guaranteed, assurance of it.

As for your claim that you understood guanophore, I wonder still why you would say “if he believes he can separate himself from the love of God”, when he clearly said “Nothing can separate us from His love”.

Perhaps you didn’t mean to say this. I’m guessing you meant to say “if he thinks God’s love doesn’t equate to eternal security…etc etc…” ? I was simply reacting to what you actually wrote.

Again, welcome.

p.s. coming across as some sort of pious spiritual guidance counselor to faithful, extremely devout Catholics on this forum is going to get you nowhere. We’ve found Christ in His absolute fullness, Piper. The Catholic Church is the essence of Christ, it is fully and completely Christocentric. You can spare us the “your heart is hardened” and “come to Christ” banter.

I believe I will leave you both alone and apologize for what appears may have offended you and Guanaphore; so guanaphore if you read this; i apologize to you as well. I know the gospel very well and am trying to bring application to our lives, but some see it differently than that and get offended, which i have no reason to intentionally offend anyone. As Spock would “live long and prosper”

God bless both of ya and have a great and enjoyable Thanksgiving.

timothy

 

[guanophore]

You are very gracious. However; God only sets His love on those who set there love on Christ; so to say that being loved by God does not equate to eternal security is a fallacy.

Can you please show where you derived the notion that God “sets His love” on only those that choose Him? While you are at it, can you also please explain where “setting” love is different than “God so loved the world that He gave His only son…”?

You see, when I read scripture, I see that God created man to have fellowship with Him. He looked upon His creation, and saw that it was good. Even when man fell from the state of communion in which he dwelt with God, God continually reached out to man in love. While we were yet sinners (unable to “set our love upon Christ”), He died for us. He looked upon Jerusalem with grief, because He loved her, and she did not recognize the time of her visitation.

From where I am reading, it seems to me that God’s love for us does not equate to salvation at all.

John 8 - Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. - verse 42

Well, there is no doubt that only those who belong to Him love Him back, but we love Him because He first loved us, and that before we were saved.

Romans 5 But ***God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ***- verse 8

Actually, this is the refutation of your assertion above. It is clear that God loved us before we were able to love Him.

 Romans 8 - 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that ***all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ***

I don’t see how this supports the assertion in the first paragraph above.

Ephesians 2 - But God, who is rich in mercy, f***or his great love wherewith he loved us***,  5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath ***quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) ***

You are posting all the scriptures that prove your assertion is false! Do you not see that?

This is one of my favorites and i hope it will be yours as well.

Titus 3 - But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, ***but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; ***6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus Christ saves sinners. He does not save those whose “hearts are set upon Him”. Their hearts become set upon Him because while we were yet sinners, He loved us.

There is so much more I could share concerning the love He has set on His own and the eternal promises He gives to those whom Christ died...praise God and be thankful for the Savior Jesus Christ...amen.

Yes, I agree. However, His love does not equate to eternal life. God loves those who walk away from Him also.

 

[SteveGC]

I believe I will leave you both alone and apologize for what appears may have offended you and Guanaphore; so guanaphore if you read this; i apologize to you as well. I know the gospel very well and am trying to bring application to our lives, but some see it differently than that and get offended, which i have no reason to intentionally offend anyone. As Spock would “live long and prosper”

God bless both of ya and have a great and enjoyable Thanksgiving.

timothy

You don’t have to leave us alone, Timothy. Debating is bound to be offensive on both sides. You are simply being made aware of some reactions we might have to your comments. I only challenged you because as you are a new forum member, one who seemingly has an agenda to tell Catholics the error of their ways, I wanted you to know you are not in a mission field here, and you also are in the company of some extremely devout Christians, who rightly believe that they have aligned themselves with Christ’s One Holy Apostolic Church, and hence are aligned with the fullness of His teaching, His stores of grace, His fullest promises. I thought I’d head you off at the pass before you venture into this realm, and prepare you for what you will encounter, and give you some tips on how you yourself might be better served in your own Christian walk.

Please do stay and have discourse with us. I don’t speak for Guanophore, as much as I just intervened in your dialogue with him. To the best of my knowledge and instinct, I try to help my fellow Catholics on here as much as they continue to help me. I’ll let guan speak for himself, however.

Blessings.

 

[guanophore]

You are confused; we are sanctified - set apart for God (positionally), we are being sanctified (growing in Christ) and will be sanctified (glorified).

No, I don’t think I am confused. Of course we are set apart for God! We will be glorified if we persevere. Some don’t. Remember the parable of the seeds? How many of the four kinds sprouted? How many of those that sprouted persevered?

It is god who justifies and sanctifies and glorifies and “He who began a good work, WILL COMPLETE it till the day of Jesus” - This is an eternal promise from start to finish. that is what Jesus and the apostles and the writers and the prophets taught and it is you that have departed form the apostolic teachings as revealed in Scripture.

They did teach this, and they taught a number of other things along with it. It is improper to take one idea and attempt to extrapolate a doctrine from it while setting aside the rest of the Apostolic Teaching.

I just can’t help but think you have such a hardened heart that if Jesus or one of the apostles were in front of you and told you the same truth you would not accept it; i hope I am wrong.

Me too!

I am curious why you think that, since I reject OSAS, I have a hard heart toward God?

Listen to the writer of Hebrews and devote yourself to some mediation on these passages when you have some extra time and see how the HS will work in you.

I do this regularly, Timothy. I cannot escape the reality that the book was written to believers.

 

[Catholic555]

I’m not really sure where this post is going considering I overlooked 14 pages of it, but I came across a really informative article on perfect contrition that shed light on a topic I wasn’t 100% familiar with as a college-aged Catholic. Have a look. It’s worth your while.

rosarychapel.net/files/PerfectContrition.pdf

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Can you please show where you derived the notion that God “sets His love” on only those that choose Him? While you are at it, can you also please explain where “setting” love is different than “God so loved the world that He gave His only son…”?

You see, when I read scripture, I see that God created man to have fellowship with Him. He looked upon His creation, and saw that it was good. Even when man fell from the state of communion in which he dwelt with God, God continually reached out to man in love. While we were yet sinners (unable to “set our love upon Christ”), He died for us. He looked upon Jerusalem with grief, because He loved her, and she did not recognize the time of her visitation.

From where I am reading, it seems to me that God’s love for us does not equate to salvation at all.

Well, there is no doubt that only those who belong to Him love Him back, but we love Him because He first loved us, and that before we were saved.

Actually, this is the refutation of your assertion above. It is clear that God loved us before we were able to love Him.

I don’t see how this supports the assertion in the first paragraph above.

You are posting all the scriptures that prove your assertion is false! Do you not see that?

Jesus Christ saves sinners. He does not save those whose “hearts are set upon Him”. Their hearts become set upon Him because while we were yet sinners, He loved us.

Yes, I agree. However, His love does not equate to eternal life. God loves those who walk away from Him also.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ro 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I don’t think God loves the apostate as you described, but Like I said i will leave you and Steve alone and wish you both long and prosperous lives…peace out!

 

[guanophore]

I believe I will leave you both alone and apologize for what appears may have offended you and Guanaphore; so guanaphore if you read this; i apologize to you as well. I know the gospel very well and am trying to bring application to our lives, but some see it differently than that and get offended, which i have no reason to intentionally offend anyone. As Spock would “live long and prosper”

God bless both of ya and have a great and enjoyable Thanksgiving.

timothy

If we wanted to be left alone, we would not be here!

I was offended by your comments, but I think you are just proceeding from some false premises. You seem to think that we many not have biblical knowlege or experience in the faith. On the contrary, some of us here have had decades in “bible churches” and formal training in theology. We do see things differently, and that is why we are having this conversation.

Remember, though, we are not here so you can tutor us. CAF is a place where people can come to get Catholic Answers. If you don’t have only questions, but only preaching, perhaps it is not the best venue for you?

 

[guanophore]

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ro 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I don’t think God loves the apostate as you described, but Like I said i will leave you and Steve alone and wish you both long and prosperous lives…peace out!

God loves everyone he creates. He hates sin, and when the person He loves falls into sin, the sin separates that person from God. Jacob and Esau had the Truth revealed to them. Both of them knew what God expected. Jacob did what God commanded, and Esau did not.

I am not sure why you are bringing in the idea of the apostate here. What I am arguing is your claim that God loves those whose “hearts are set upon Him”. If He only loved those, He would not have sent His son to die, while we were yet sinners.

Don’t you think the Jews that Jesus looked upon and wept over were apostate? He came to His own, and they knew Him not, and it broke his heart!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

No, I don’t think I am confused. Of course we are set apart for God! We will be glorified if we persevere. Some don’t. Remember the parable of the seeds? How many of the four kinds sprouted? How many of those that sprouted persevered?

The parable of the “soils” are the representative of the hearts; the first three are false professors, only the 3rd soil has been properly prepared to receive the seed (the Word), the soil preparer is God and you should notice the fine print; only the 4th soil produced fruit, the visible sign of the Christian, the rest were not Christians who lost their salvation, they were never saved. Notice the one who fell on the hard path and the devil came and snatched it away, the next falls on rocky soil and withered away because they had “no root” etc. Jesus explains the parable very clearly.

I my opinion; people who believe they can lose their salvation; never had it to begin with or they are babes in Christ still sucking on the milk and eating the strained carrots and not growing. God will not waste time taking up residence in a life, just to abandon it later; that makes no sense whatsoever and goes against the various places where it clearly states “no one” can remove from Christ that which the Father has given.

I am curious why you think that, since I reject OSAS, I have a hard heart toward God?

I would venture to guess you reject many aspects of the Bible, such as OSAS, Sola scriptura ect calling it invented for sure; yet when challenged with immaculate conception or perpetual virginity to name 2 of many, which are not remotely implicit, like OSAS and Sola Scriptura are very implicit to the point where it is almost explicit. It is what you have been taught and what you choose to trust for your path to heaven. To each according to their believe and to each will be judged according to those beliefs.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If we wanted to be left alone, we would not be here!

I was offended by your comments, but I think you are just proceeding from some false premises. You seem to think that we many not have biblical knowlege or experience in the faith. On the contrary, some of us here have had decades in “bible churches” and formal training in theology. We do see things differently, and that is why we are having this conversation.

Remember, though, we are not here so you can tutor us. CAF is a place where people can come to get Catholic Answers. If you don’t have only questions, but only preaching, perhaps it is not the best venue for you?

Really; it seems to me that apologetics is a venue for the Catholic to sharpen their defense of their faith; should they do that within or against themselves? Defending ones faith is done when another person disagrees, in this forum, with your doctrines and you are to defend those doctrines with whatever tools you have. Since you say I am in the wrong venue because I am not asking questions, but showing through Scripture that some of your doctrines are contrary to the Bible, to which you might defend these doctrines you affirm as Biblical and vice versa. I guess there is no venue for anyone who does not agree with your position, so why do they allow Protestants in the forum in the first place? So they can be still, listen, and hopefully be converted; some venue.

I guess the other issue would be is you must believe a person can actually and really convert someone although this would be contrary to the teaching of God and the writers of the Bible.

It is interesting that one of the rules is that no one is allowed to “proselytize” Catholics, convert to another faith or religion, which tells me that the writer of the rules believes that men have the power of conversion, which is simply not a Biblical principal. God is the only one who can convert the soul to Christianity and those that are already Christians cannot lose their conversion according to Scripture; therefore the writer of the rule must feel as you do that one can be converted away from God by man or Satan. If it wasn’t so serious it would almost be funny, but it is not.

 

[Thing]

Timothy:

The parable of the “soils” are the representative of the hearts; the first three are false professors, only the 3rd soil has been properly prepared to receive the seed (the Word), the soil preparer is God and you should notice the fine print; only the 4th soil produced fruit, the visible sign of the Christian, the rest were not Christians who lost their salvation, they were never saved. Notice the one who fell on the hard path and the devil came and snatched it away, the next falls on rocky soil and withered away because they had “no root” etc. Jesus explains the parable very clearly.

What about the one which grew up but was choked because the person let the troubles of the world overcome him?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

God loves everyone he creates. He hates sin, and when the person He loves falls into sin, the sin separates that person from God. Jacob and Esau had the Truth revealed to them. Both of them knew what God expected. Jacob did what God commanded, and Esau did not.

I am not sure why you are bringing in the idea of the apostate here. What I am arguing is your claim that God loves those whose “hearts are set upon Him”. If He only loved those, He would not have sent His son to die, while we were yet sinners.

Don’t you think the Jews that Jesus looked upon and wept over were apostate? He came to His own, and they knew Him not, and it broke his heart!

That because you believe men are the primary reason for mens salvation; whereas we are only secondary. The relation between the Father and the Son is one we cannot comprehend, but what is clear is that those whom the Father has chosen to give to the Son are the Bride of Christ and when the entire church is redeemed, the bride will be presented back to the father and the church will worship God for evermore.

Just to clarify; “it is those to whom God has set His love on”, which I speak and the Bible speaks.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

This is a statement that demonstrates the paradox of freewill; which no human can fully understand; yet without God removing the covering from their eyes and ears, they cannot come to Him.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What about the one which grew up but was choked because the person let the troubles of the world overcome him?

Luke8:14

Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Mark 4

And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Matthew 13

“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

I can not explain better than the Lord.

 

[Thing]

13 Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive. 15 For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They shut their eyes and ears, they were not shut for them; they shut them themselves least they should understand and be healed. Healing and conversion of heart was a possibility for them but they shut out that possibility themselves.