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2nd_Adam
Guest
Probably 75%.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
What do some Catholics have against the promises of God? Unbelief is sin. It is impossible for God to lie. His promises that are made to His sheep will be fulfilled.
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - Jesus
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Please read the book of Job.…watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.
What happens if the devil devours you.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
So you were a Christian and decide to become an atheist (i.e. “unbelief is only mortal sin”), are you saved? We nothing against the promises of God, just not the ones that not upheld by the Apostles. It’s impossible for God to lie but man is capable to turning his back to God through sin.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Please look at the verse again. Who does not believe to the end? Who believes to the end?
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Thing
Guest
Is that supposed to be an answer to something?
And I still don’t believe God predestined you to hell, Adam.
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guanophore
Guest
I don’t think this is consistent with the text, 2nd. There are four kinds of seeds (or soils, if you will). 75% of them sprout and begin to grow.
Now, we are in agreement that no person can be born from above and grow without God’s grace, right?
However, two thirds of the seeds that sprout and grow do not persevere.
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guanophore
Guest
Catholics love teh promises of God. We structure our whole lives around them. We just understand them differently than you do. We have received the Promises from the Apostles, and that is why we understand them differently. Your understanding of the promises is extrapolated from scripture, in isolation from the Apostolic Succession. What we are “against” is departing from what God has already revealed to the Church in favor of a modern innovation.
Amen!
:extrahappy:This is one of my favorite passages in support of the Deuterocanonical books, and sacred Tradition. This was not one of the Feasts promulgated by Moses, but one that was developed during the intertestamental period. If Jesus did not affirm this feast, or the origination of it was uninspired, I doubt very much that He would have visited the temple at that time, since His presence is confirmation of it’s validity.
For some reason, you think that His refusal to drop them means that they cannot JUMP out. Not sure why.
those 2/3 of the seeds that sprouted and did not persist are those that did not take root in Him, and gave in to the cares of this world. They sprouted, began to grow, then were lost.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Fiberzilla!
Uhh, I’m afraid that your understanding of catholic theology is a little shaky! There is nothing wrong with a Catholic saying that they believe they are saved.
Hmmm - it seems like you are equating several terms which are not equal: “saved”, “eternal security” and “eternal life”. More importantly, however, you are confusing being “saved” with “going to Heaven”. Scripture (and Catholicism) recognize them as different but I suspect you don’t. Failure to recognize the difference is an error worthy of correcting.
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guanophore
Guest
The verse does not mention either of these things.
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Philthy
Guest
Hello again! Yeah I wanted to check on this a little more and confirm that you, in fact, are mistaken in your understanding of the Catholic teaching on the sin of presumption.
Here is some info taken from:
catholicbasictraining.com/apologetics/coursetexts/1s.htm
The sin of presumption
The sin of presumption is the name given to the belief in eternal assurance; it is presuming on God’s mercy. It is not just a theologically incorrect position to hold, but is also one which is a sin because it makes one proud and think that one has no need of God’s further assistance. The person thinks they are already permanently “saved” and so they do not need God, the Church or anything else.
The sin of presumption does not include making statements such as “when we are in Heaven . . .” or by talking about seeing God face to face and all the other benefits of Heaven as something which we know will happen.Catholics who are in a state of grace (and it is possible to know when you are in a state of grace as only mortal sin takes that away, and you are always aware of when you have committed a mortal sin) are assured Heaven at that moment. ** The sin of presumption refers to a belief that regardless of mortal sins one will still merit Heaven.**
**Here’s another from an article by Fr Vincent Serpa:
**
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum4&recnu=1&number=442714
This is how the Old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption: "It may be defined as **the condition of a soul which, **because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them."
Both of the above versions of the sin of presumption - from Catholic sources - seem to be at odds with yours. Perhaps you may wish to review the topic a bit before you comment further on it as you appear to be confused on a few issues. Unfortunately it was very difficult for me to find it on the online Catechism…I know its in there, but I couldnt find it…
M
MariaG
Guest
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church found here
**2092 **There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).
Would that be the one you wanted?
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Philthy
Guest
Yea, that’ll do! Thank you
M
MariaG
Guest
Welcome:tiphat:
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2nd_Adam
Guest
LOL… Scripture sure doesn’t mean much to you does it? With Scripture abuse like this, I wonder why I even bother with you.
You sure seem to refuse to enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone. I’m not sure why? Maybe you really believe in the sovereignit of man in salvation after-all… work work work your way to Heaven.Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. - Hebrews 4
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2nd_Adam
Guest
LOL… Scripture sure doesn’t mean much to you does it? With Scripture abuse like this, I wonder why I even bother with you.
Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. - Hebrews 4
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JustaServant
Guest
Good quotes, especially from Fr. Serpa.
For myself, the longer I am away from the OSAS mindset, the more I realize it is more an issue of comfort rather than security. For the condemned criminal, it gives him great ‘assurance’ knowing the judge will pardon him for his crimes. So, his faith is not in the judge, its in his own comfort. A refusal to take responsibility knowing that each time the judge will pardon every crime he commits.
To take personal responsibility for ones actions can be a scary thing.
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Philthy
Guest
Hey- be nice! Guanophore has expressed his position without being unnecessarily provocative. His intent is to share the gospel with you, that is not a reason for insult but a cause that you each share. I have found that he has many wonderful things to share - including his love of our Lord, his knowledge of Scripture, and a temperment that you and I would do well to emulate…
This seems more like frustration on your part rather than the sharing of the love and wisdom of one united to Christ. Surely you recognize that we are not sent to preach merely to those who welcome us with open arms, for what good is it to love only those who happen to agree with you? The reason that we “bother with” those who offend us is because we are concerned more with the building of the Kingdom of Christ and the good of another rather than our own earthly desires, comfort and satisfaction. It is known as “denying oneself, taking up your cross - daily - and following Christ”.With Scripture abuse like this, I wonder why I even bother with you.
I think you each have a different concept of what it means to “rest” in Christ, and nothing more. Is that such a big deal? I dont think Guanophore is advocating a “works based” salvation predicated upon the sovereignty of man. He, like all the NT writers, believes that **our behavior as Christians can have eternal consequences(cf Gal 5, 1Cor6:9; Eph5:5; James 2:24) and that we exert a level of control over that behavior and that to the degree that we exert that control in obedience to the will of God reveals how far along we are in dying to ourself. ** For it remains a fact that God has recreated us in Christ to walk(as opposed to *not *walking) in the good works(as opposed to sinful works) that He has prepared in advance. Some - in fact most! - of walking in those good works does not resemble what we normally think of a “rest”. They can - and usually are - arduous and discomforting. Take a good hard look at the lives of the Saints, Martyrs and other holy people and see how their “rest” in Christ “worked” itself out in their life choices.
Blessings!
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Philthy
Guest
Fortunately most of the OSAS advocates do not abuse their freedom in Christ IMHO.
It has been an issue since the very beginning of Christianity. Listen to what Paul says to the OSASers of his day from Romans 6:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Sound familiar? You know that some who heard his message and “accepted it” (ie, they were “saved”) quickly fell prey to the “lures of the world” and found a great intellectual excuse for their sin. **They rationalized that not being preoccupied with their sinfulness actually glorifies God in that they have put their trust completely in His finished work on the Cross, and not in themselves **(ie not in their works, not in their avoidance of sin, but totally and completely in the FINISHED work of Christ which God has irrevocably predestined them to from the foundation of the world. Its such a good sell to fallen man! God has done it all, and all you have to do is believe it and your sins dont matter anymore - in fact, it would be offensive to God for you to worry about your sin at all since Christ already paid for them. Very dangerous indeed…
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
C
crazzeto
Guest
I guess it depends upon how you look at it… Now I’ll qualify this with, I don’t necessarly know that Catholics are inherantly any better with what I’m about to bring up, but I would suggest that that is because unfortunetly many Catholics don’t bother to learn their faith. Since I’ve started taking time to do this, I’ve had a powerful personal conversion or reversion to the faith… I prefer conversion because in a sense, it feels more accurate, but I don’t want to suggest that I was ever anything but Catholic in a strict sense. Anyway:
I’ve got some very devout “bible believing” non-denominational Christian friends. These people (actually, they’re a single family, the ones I’m talking about) are very devout in their devotion to Christ. Not only do they attend service regularly, but they’re constantly getting involved with their church. I think seceratly, my friend J would love to be a Minister but that’s really not his calling and he knows it. But they have a problem, and the problem is much the same as the problem I have in my faith (I like to think I’m pretty Christ centered, and these days I find my self back at church doing volenteer work more often than not). They’re habitual sinners, they copy DVD’s with out thinking twice about it (theft?). They have a gigantic collection of illegal Mp3’s that they’re proud of, though my friend J sort of mentally justifies it saying “well I got it from my friends merged collections”, so somehow that makes it OK. Last saturday was my fiance’s birthday, we went to the Fantastic Mr. Fox. Just as soon as the movie ended his wife L and her brother R promptly walked over to a different screening room, showing another movie they wanted to see, and sat in yes of course with out paying.
Like them I have my sins as well. My fiance and I aren’t half as chaste as I want and pray unceasingly to be. And no it’s not just all her leading me astray, I’d be a big fat gigantic liar if I said that. So what’s the one difference here?
Well I just hinted at it, in my mind I see the stark and real problem of my slavery to sin. I think my friend J is vegly aware of it, he’s deeper into the faith than his wife L. But he seems to lack the deep sense of awareness of what it means, truely, to be a slave to sin. At the end of the day, he and his wife (and his Bro in Law R) curl up in their blankets of OSAS and it’s pre-cursor saved by faith alone and take comfort in that. In my case I see the bleak consequence of my slavery to sin, pray unceasingly for it to end but I do in fact have complete assurance and security in the fact that Jesus is truely Just and truely Merciful. I know that however I’m judged, it will be a fair judgment, exactly as has been laid out for me in the Bible, Apistolic Tradition and as taught by the Magisterium.
So while I see what you’re saying, I think that in the end, JustaServant is pretty much dead on. OSAS and SBFA are issues of comfort.
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