Lack of security in salvation

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GramdpaMunster

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I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time. You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way. Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time. You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way. Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.
First of all, profanity is not a mortal sin. Second of all, you cannot commit a mortal sin “by accident”, or without thinking about it, in other words, just “slipping up”. A mortal sin must be of grave matter, you must have full knowledge that it is grave matter, and willfully choose to do it anyway.

It’s very easy to know if you are or are not in a state of sanctifying grace. It is also very easy to get to confession. In the scenario you brought up, that of a car wreck, assuming that perfect contrition (that of being truly sorry for what you’ve done, not just that of wanting to avoid the consequences of what you’ve done) is present, the perfect contrition plus the intent of going to confession would be sufficient.

We’re not “left hanging”, if that is what you are implying.
 
What you were taught growing up has little to do with the Biblical plan for our salvation. Much the way that what you have been told the Catholic Church teaches if off base. It is nice to see that you’ve come here to find out what the real story is.

The Bible needs to be read in it’s entirety, (you don’t need to read every word from start to finish) but what you do need to do is understand what the Bible teaches as a whole, not in little isolated texts. You will hear people quote one or two passages, they will tell you, “Well the Bible says, By your faith you are saved.” Well yup Jesus did say that to someone who was afflicted with an illness and then was healed by Jesus, but they forget a few things, Jesus also told them to go and sin no more, sent the cured to the priests in the Temple, because they needed to have the healing certified by the priest, so they could be declared clean. He also commanded other things for people to do, ie. eat his body and drink His blood. He commanded the Apostles to go to the ends of the Earth and preach the Gospel baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. None of this squares with paying attention to just one verse, and ignoring the others. Why give the authority to forgive sins if one’s sins after “Accepting the Lord as personal Savior” one cannot loose his salvation?

The second problem is that many Protestants are taught that the Sacraments are believed by the Catholic Church to be some kind of rite that magically transforms or forgives by the power of the priest alone. The reality is that the Catholic Church teaches that the Sacraments were instituted by Christ, and the graces of the Sacraments come from Christ, not the priest. The priest is given the authority by the Church, and by Christ to administer them in the name and by the authority of Jesus. But the primary minister of each Sacrament, each time they are administered is Jesus Himself. The reason we can be confident that when the priest or bishop (in the case of marriage the man and woman who are married) preforms the rites, is Jesus said they would work.

Now the Church has defined that God will never allow a person to miss out on opportunites to have access to His graces if a priest is not availible. So if a person has been living a life in which he tries to grow spiritually, and remain in a state pf grace, commits a mortal sin, and dies before he has a chance to use the normal means that Jesus gave us to assure us our sins are forgiven, we assume that he was sorry and that God can and does forgive him directly, (In the sacrament, while the priest forgives the sins in the name of Christ, and the sins are forgiven by God because God forgives the sins through the actions of His minister, if the person is penetent (sorry) for his sins, and desires to try to not sin anymore.) As long as the person has not publicly stated, well I know the sin offends God, and I could care less, I won’t be sorry for my sins, we depend as in all things on God’s grace.

So can we just ignore the Sacraments and go straight to God any old time we want? Well why would we when it is clear that Jesus gave us means to assure us that we are being nourished spiritually, forgiven of our Sins, or joined as one in marriage? In Choosing Jesus, I’d rather choose all that He promised, and submit myself to all that He asked of me.
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
As an aside note, I want to point out that what was “finished” on the cross was the Passover. This link might help shed some light on this subject.

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time. You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way. Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.

I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!
Calvin was wrong then just as Now. Read your Bible In context, you will see that Paul & Jesus etc all testify to persevering unto Death. They all talk about the ability to give-up or lose your Faith by choice.
Start with these Verses, Learn & Grow!

Matthew 7:19-23 - "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

Romans 11:20-22 - “But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1 Timothy 1:18-20 - “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”

Hebrews 6:4-6 - “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Hebrews 10:26-31 - “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 - “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.”

2 Peter 3:17 - “Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.”

😃
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
It’s very sad that this is one of the most common errors in protestantism.
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell.
Teachnically we teach that you’re in danger of it, only God knows what’s in your heart. What is in your heart is what, ultimatly matters most. What is in your heart can effectivly take a mortal sin, and make it venial.
You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession.
Well if you never go to confession, then you’re not repentant. Do you beleive that one must be repentant in order to go to heaven? Or do you believe that I could… With 100% faith in Jesus’s salvation in my heart… Murder everyone in a random public location, finish it off by killing my self and still go to heaven? Personally I don’t believe that, most people, including most such as your self who believe the error of Sola Fide don’t believe it either. If you don’t believe it then you don’t beleive in Sola Fide.

Regarding confession, I know some Lutheran branches practice it. I would suggest you learn about it. Confession is how Christ commanded to seek the forgivness of our sins (it’s in the bible).
It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time.
Why is this? Jesus didn’t die on the cross for us all to be damned to be hell. He died for us on the cross so that we could be saved. I get the feeling that you don’t have a correct view of salvation, if you did you would understand that it isn’t all about God looking for legal loopholes to damn you for eternaty, which seems to be what you think is going on.
You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way.
I think you’ve just demonstrated the error of your view point. I take it your faith tradition also denies that there are mortal and venial sins?
Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.
Again, you betray the error of your view point. God judges by what is in your heart.
 
I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose.
 
I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose.
You expect us not to point out the error of once saved always saved when you try and bring this up? Listen, we don’t get to pick and choose how salvation works, there is a single objective truth to how we get to heaven, changing your personal philosophy doesn’t change how it works… It just becomes a mark against you for thinking such a crazy thought.

Regardless, as a cradle Catholic, I assure you I’m not living my whole life in a panic. I am, on the other hand, doing my best day by day to live my life per Christ’s teaching. And I do trust that when the time comes, Christ will judge me fairly.
 
I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose.
That’s not really an adequate description,though. I think that’s what the other posters were getting at. If we commit mortal sin, our job is to repent as laid out for us in the Bible, by confessing our sins. We must go to confession. If we die en route, then it is reasonable to entrust our souls to God who understands our heart. We were going to confession to seek His forgiveness, so one would presume that forgiveness if given. If we reject our call to repent mortal sin, then we do not love God, and so we cannot be saved anyway. If we reject our call to resist mortal sin, then we do not love God, and we cannot be saved anyway. In other words, one who loves and follows God doesn’t need to walk around in a state of fear.

This question, of course, stems from the fact that, as other posters have said, protestants generally lack a reasonable understanding of Catholic teaching on Grace and Mercy… which is why they were trying to explain it to you.
 
I think the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masturbate you lose.
This is a very legalistic way of looking at these situations. Unfortunately as human beings we need a legal structure to help us make decisions and find our way. However when push comes to shove and we are facing our Lord on his judgment seat it will come down more to our relationships with Our Lord and fellow human beings. As Paul says in Philipians 2 we do work out or salvation with fear and trembling. We do our best in this world and throw ourselves on the mercy of the Lord. If like Paul we do our best to run a good race, He will not fail us. There is always Hope to sustain us till we have “crossed the bar.” Neither despair or total confidence(presumption) are good life stances as they themselves are sinful states to be in.

Further, although masturbation and other actions may be sins with grave matter, they must be done with full knowledge and consent of the will to be deadly to the soul. It would be hard to conceive of a person who truly loves the Lord and who struggles with a serious sin would ipso facto be condemned out of hand because he slipped up. We conceive of and talk of a world that is either black or white, but the reality covers a whole spectrum of grays from one to the other. It is indeed a blessing that God is our judge and not our fellow human beings.
 
To those who are born again…
Scripture states…
  • And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Jesus proclaims

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand”*

Also Paul records…
*"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, **will be able to separate us from the love of God *that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 
everyone who is baptised is born again, of water and spirit. That doesn’t change the fact that there is no aboslute assurance with regard to salvation. Unrepentant gratuitous sin is not something you can just get away with.
 
everyone who is baptised is born again, of water and spirit. That doesn’t change the fact that there is no aboslute assurance with regard to salvation. Unrepentant gratuitous sin is not something you can just get away with.
That is a false understanding of being born again…One’s life must be transformed, can you read Johns letters and see yourself in them? are fruits of a transformed life evident in your actions and decisions? have you made Jesus the Christ the LORD of your life?

Being born again is a change of heart—a spiritual transformation
 
That is a false understanding of being born again…One’s life must be transformed, can you read Johns letters and see yourself in them? are fruits of a transformed life evident in your actions and decisions? have you made Jesus the Christ the LORD of your life?

Being born again is a change of heart—a spiritual transformation
and that is something the Catholic church has taught for 1,976 years. However, being born again does NOT mean one will never commit a sin, nor that our transgressions are not an affront to God. That is the reason Christ Himself instituted the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time.
On the contrary, Cathlolics can be very much at peace, trusting in God to know their hearts. No believing Christian commits a mortal sin easily. Would you? Would you commit a grave sin without care and without remorse? If you wouldn’t, why do you assume a Catholic who is faithful all his life would commit a mortal sin without care and without remorse?
You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way.
This is a terrible example, because there are a number of reasons why that person did not die in mortal sin.
ur faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.
So there are no happy, joyful, peaceful Catholics? Do you actually know any Catholics?

And do you know of no Protestants who, deep down, are not certain of their salvation? Who keep trying over and over to be sure they’re saved?

BTW, what is the difference between your hammer-curser above, and this man? Will he be saved? Why or why not?
 
I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose.
And you have no doubt of your salvation, no matter what terrible sins you commit? Does any Protestant really believe that? I don’t believe they do.
 
That is a false understanding of being born again…One’s life must be transformed, can you read Johns letters and see yourself in them? are fruits of a transformed life evident in your actions and decisions? have you made Jesus the Christ the LORD of your life?

Being born again is a change of heart—a spiritual transformation
I think you have hit the nail on the head.

You said that ‘one’s **life **must be transformed’.’

And that is exactly right.

You must keep in mind, though, what a life is; or rather what *our *life is. We live, not like the angels *outside *of time with our choice eternally made and secure; we live a temporal existance, at every moment it seems almost, faced with fresh challenges and decisions; we must choose our course constantly for good or for evil. *We *must choose. As our Lord said frequently ‘let no man deceive you’, Watch ye, ‘beware ye’…
As Satan roams like a lion seeking whom he may devour we must at all times ‘keep watch’. This necessitates *US **living *our Faith throughout our lives. We can hope with confidence then that the Lord keeps His promise to us and will grant us everlasting life if we continue in Life to ‘abide in Him’.
When we decide with our own free will to set aside this way of life and cease to abide in Him, deliberately, freely, we commit, as it is said, a mortal sin. When we no longer abide in Him we no longer abide in Him nor He in us. We forfeit Life. And like the Prodigal Son in the story we must return or we are lost. We are always welcomed back by Him. Jesus gave us the Sacraments for this purpose; as real and as powerful as His living Flesh, they serve in this reality to strengthen and heal the pilgrim to aid him on his travels through this temporal life.
 
That is a false understanding of being born again…One’s life must be transformed, can you read Johns letters and see yourself in them? are fruits of a transformed life evident in your actions and decisions? have you made Jesus the Christ the LORD of your life?

Being born again is a change of heart—a spiritual transformation
Being born again is being born again of water and spirit, I assume you’re familiar with John Chapter 3? it does change your life forever, you become a new creation. It does not remove your free will, it does not remove your capacity to reject God and it does not assure your salvation.

now the context in which you say “you must change your life”, yes exactly right this is what the process of salvation is about. Changing your life, dieing to your self and becoming totally Gods. God Bless 🙂
 
ROMANS 8:1

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

ROMANS 8:6
Code:
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
ROMANS 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

REVELATION 2:5
Code:
 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
What fallen!” But the false doctrine of once saved always saved tells people that once they are saved they can never fall! But this is not what the Bible says

Joann
 
I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time. You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way. Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.
#1) there is no such thing as committing an accidental mortal sin, if you hit yourself with a hammer and cursed, it is at best a venial sin.

#2 )if the person did indeed committed a mortal sin and was on his way to confession or had full intent of going and was sincerly sorry for his sin(s) and dies before he can go to confession, he is forgiven.
 
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