Lack of security in salvation

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There is another aspect to this and that is the nature of sin. I thought about posting this as a separate thread, but I think it relates enough to the subject to fit under the heading. Can a person do anything that is pure enough to be acceptable in God’s eyes? We can try to live a life pleasing to God, but because of our nature everything we do will be tainted to some extent by selfishness. Jesus’ sermon where he said if you look after a woman to lust after her in you heart you have committed adultry in your heart is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. If baptism washes you of your sin and you are free to choose right or wrong then sin is an act that is offensive to God. If virtually every thought you have is impure in God’s eyes then nothing you can do will be pure enough to count in your favor. This relates back to the Salvation by grace through faith. (By the way, not everyone who believes in salvation by faith alone believes in OSAS)
I think the difference in the definition of sin is at the heart of the difference between Catholic and protestant views on justification The Catholics seem to have a more optamistic view of human nature than we do.
 
Predestination and free will is an enigma that the human mind can not fully understand. Some people think everything we do is predestined and you are either elect or not. Other’s think that humans have free will and you can choose to accept or reject God. The fact of the matter is both are right.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
I think the difference in the definition of sin is at the heart of the difference between Catholic and protestant views on justification The Catholics seem to have a more optamistic view of human nature than we do.
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The basis of OSAS lies in the view of sin. If one accepts TOTAL depravity, than it stands to reason sin must be dealt with outside of ourselves. ANYTHING involving ourselves must be discarded, thus salvation is ‘guarenteed’.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
There is another aspect to this and that is the nature of sin. I thought about posting this as a separate thread, but I think it relates enough to the subject to fit under the heading. Can a person do anything that is pure enough to be acceptable in God’s eyes? We can try to live a life pleasing to God, but because of our nature everything we do will be tainted to some extent by selfishness. Jesus’ sermon where he said if you look after a woman to lust after her in you heart you have committed adultry in your heart is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. If baptism washes you of your sin and you are free to choose right or wrong then sin is an act that is offensive to God. If virtually every thought you have is impure in God’s eyes then nothing you can do will be pure enough to count in your favor. This relates back to the Salvation by grace through faith. (By the way, not everyone who believes in salvation by faith alone believes in OSAS)
I think the difference in the definition of sin is at the heart of the difference between Catholic and protestant views on justification The Catholics seem to have a more optamistic view of human nature than we do.
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Its quite simple;
  • And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
OSAS response- ? Don’t cut off your right hand, you won’t go to hell.

Catholic response- Cut off your right hand or you will go to hell.

🙂
 
GramdpaMunster said:
Predestination and free will is an enigma that the human mind can not fully understand. Some people think everything we do is predestined and you are either elect or not. Other’s think that humans have free will and you can choose to accept or reject God. The fact of the matter is both are right.
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You might say you are predestined for Me only while you choose to Abide in Me.
Those who do not Abide in Me [continue in Me] wither and die.
 
Thing said:
Its quite simple;
  • And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
OSAS response- ? Don’t cut off your right hand, you won’t go to hell.

Catholic response- Cut off your right hand or you will go to hell.

🙂
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Good post, never looked at it that way before.
 
Thing said:
Its quite simple;
  • And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
OSAS response- ? Don’t cut off your right hand, you won’t go to hell.

Catholic response- Cut off your right hand or you will go to hell.

🙂
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No, not quite but nice try anyway.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Would it be fair to say that your position is teaching the sovereignity of man in salvation, why or why not?

The question is very much related to the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054
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I don’t know what that means. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and the absolute truth of human freewill. We are saved by God’s grace. Man is completely free to resist or to cooperate with that grace.
 
ryanoneil said:
I don’t know what that means. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and the absolute truth of human freewill. We are saved by God’s grace. Man is completely free to resist or to cooperate with that grace.
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Do you really believe that man is sovereign at the same time that God is sovereign? If, so please how you are able to reconcile this belief in your own words. Thereafter, could you post Scripture to support that conclusion? 🙂
 
2nd_Adam said:
Do you really believe that man is sovereign at the same time that God is sovereign?
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That doesn’t appear to be what he said, 2A.

God is sovereign. Period.

Man responds, obeys, cooperates, and is made righteous.

The former + the on-going process of the latter = salvation.
 
GrandpaMunser, your thread attracts as many posts as cow dung attracts flies on a hot day.

To add to the question of security in salvation, I would say we have the security in knowing the promises of Christ. That is assurance enough for those who have faith. If we had full knowledge of what was the future, there would be no more running the race and putting on Christ. We would go into retirement in our spirituality because we have it made here on earth. I think this is why God wants us to have faith and why we have free will.

Your other question is about can we do good things here. The answer is that we are in the natural. God is in the supernatural. We cannot do natural things to atone for a supernatural problem. This is why we needed Christ to bridge that gap and give the Grace to rise to the supernatural status so that the good we do is of a supernatural nature. We cannot do charity that is the love of God without His Grace working in us.

This is a short explanation of your questions and I hope I have added just a little bit to the conversation.

mdcpensive1
 
ryanoneil said:
I don’t know what that means. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and the absolute truth of human freewill. We are saved by God’s grace. Man is completely free to resist or to cooperate with that grace.
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Maybe we should look at this from another angle? How sufficient is the grace of God to accomplish what God intended? If grace is only a help to save those who utilize the grace of God, then man’s will is stronger than God’s grace in those who will be eternally lost. In those cases… those who do not cooperate with the grace of God and are lost, in that group… man’s will is greater than God’s grace. In the reprobates, man is sovereign over God.
SteveGC said:
That doesn’t appear to be what he said, 2A.

God is sovereign. Period.

Man responds, obeys, cooperates, and is made righteous.

The former + the on-going process of the latter = salvation.
Click to expand...
 
2nd_Adam said:
Maybe we should look at this from another angle? How sufficient is the grace of God to accomplish what God intended? If grace is only a help to save those who utilize the grace of God, then man’s will is stronger than God’s grace in those who will be eternally lost. In those cases… those who do not cooperate with the grace of God and are lost, in that group… man’s will is greater than God’s grace. In the reprobates, man is sovereign over God.
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Wrong.

It’s not a matter of which is stronger. It’s a matter of how God orders salvation. He simply does not save us against our will. His power is sufficiently strong enough to do so, but He does not wield His power in this way. In salvation, our will is enjoined to His sovereign grace. In damnation, our will rejects His sovereign grace. God intended to give all the opportunity to be saved, not force all to be saved. There is no love in the latter…and love abounds in the former.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Therefore, you believe in the sovereignity of man in salvation, correct?
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Why do people go to hell, Adam?
Why does anyone go to hell
God could have snaped his fingers and everyone in creation would be perfect immedialely and go straight to heaven.
Before a human soul is created in heaven, what wrong has it done to deserve hell?
Did God create that soul to go to hell?
Or did that soul reject God when it became a person by an act of its own free will?
God is the King of His creation, yet the devil demanded to sift St. Peter and God agreed.
God is King of His creation yet when the angels were tested Satan failed the test because he chose pride, he was free to chose it and the angels who followed him to hell were not prevented from following him by God.
Your namesake, Adam, was created good, yet by an act of his own will he brought death into creation, a creation God had just been looking at and had called Good.
How can anything created Good by God the King, go so wrong?
 
To add to the question of security in salvation, I would say we have the security in knowing the promises of Christ. That is assurance enough for those who have faith.

There is the lack of trust in yourself, however. How do you know that in 10 years you will want to follow God’s will? You hae to rely on God’s grace, so it becomes a circular thing like predestination/free will. God’s grace keeps you wanting to choose of your own free will to accept Christ and be saved. So the real activity is outside of yourself - God’s Grace.

This is why we needed Christ to bridge that gap and give the Grace to rise to the supernatural status so that the good we do is of a supernatural nature. We cannot do charity that is the love of God without His Grace working in us.

God’s grace allows you to do good works that are of a supernatural nature and are acceptable in God’s sight. It’s the grace of God working in us.
Everything you do is tainted to some degree, though, don’t you think. Is it possable in this life to be truely selfless?
 
GramdpaMunster said:
To add to the question of security in salvation, I would say we have the security in knowing the promises of Christ. That is assurance enough for those who have faith.

There is the lack of trust in yourself, however. How do you know that in 10 years you will want to follow God’s will? You hae to rely on God’s grace, so it becomes a circular thing like predestination/free will. God’s grace keeps you wanting to choose of your own free will to accept Christ and be saved. So the real activity is outside of yourself - God’s Grace.

This is why we needed Christ to bridge that gap and give the Grace to rise to the supernatural status so that the good we do is of a supernatural nature. We cannot do charity that is the love of God without His Grace working in us.

God’s grace allows you to do good works that are of a supernatural nature and are acceptable in God’s sight. It’s the grace of God working in us.
Everything you do is tainted to some degree, though, don’t you think. Is it possable in this life to be truely selfless?
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Grace does not force. It is a supernatural opportunity [for want of a better phrase] you are free to use or not, as you wish. Some people want to be forced, simply because they see no alternative, as they long ago abandoned the Sacraments which could help them chose grace.
 
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