Lack of security in salvation

[2nd_Adam]

You are right there and I know this from personal experience. Many Protestants who think that they can lose their salvation are in the same boat as Catholics.

I was led to the Lord as a child but did not really start to take an interest in the faith until my 20s. My pastor at the time always spoke out against what he called the “once saved always saved” doctrine, he was wrong though, when we believe the Gospel we have eternal security.

Only when one realizes that salvation is a 100% free gift that we recieve on faith when we trust in Christ as Saviour can we have piece of mind.

Catholics and Protestants who think that salvation can be lost or that it requires any kind of good works will always be in a precarious situation.

 

[promethius]

Only when one realizes that salvation is a 100% free gift that we recieve on faith when we trust in Christ as Saviour can we have piece of mind.

That is so incredibly unbiblical…

 

[2nd_Adam]

GramdpaMunster,

And while the thought that salvation is NOT assured may be “uncomfortable” for you and others, religion is not about US being comfortable with God conforming to our desires. It is about us conforming our desires to God’s reality. We are told that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling and that we must persevere unto death. These things make it clear that we are NOT to be comfortable and rest on our laurels in regards to our faith. We should remain constantly vigilant against sin and FOR opportunities to do the works of Christ (which, per St Paul, we are ordained by the Holy Spirit to do).

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Paul

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again. - Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Vimy Ridge
Only when one realizes that salvation is a 100% free gift that we recieve on faith when we trust in Christ as Saviour can we have piece of mind.

That is so incredibly unbiblical…

Please explain why? You might want to read my two links before answering. We are justified by faith according to my Catholic sources.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

If you don’t believe in eternal security your religion is this, if you commit grave sins…Now I’m saved, now I’m not, now I’m saved, now I’m not, now I’m saved, now I’m not.

And if you have fallen away from the faith you will not get a second chance, you’re done for. True believers cannot fall away though they can be misled and confused.

Thank God that it is a free gift that we did not earn and cannot lose. If you could earn salvation it was not a gift and God would not give a gift that you could lose.

 

[promethius]

Please explain why? You might want to read my two links before answering. We are justified by faith according to my Catholic sources.

I don’t need to. We are saved by Grace. That is plainly spelled out without equivocation in the Bible. That is what the church has taught for 1,976 years.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t need to. We are saved by Grace. That is plainly spelled out without equivocation in the Bible. That is what the church has taught for 1,976 years.

How about this - we are saved by grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[promethius]

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again. - Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

I’m sorry, I don’t recognize Wayne Grudem as a scriptural source of truth, nor do I recognize his authority to twist scriptures to his own ends. There was a reason that post was directed at GramdpaMunster and not you: because I’m not getting into the OSAS debate with you. If you’d like to have a slugging match over theology, we’ll go at it, but that post was not designed as proof of anything (though it did draw out that at least you don’t recognize the validity of sola scriptura)

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I don’t need to. We are saved by Grace. That is plainly spelled out without equivocation in the Bible. That is what the church has taught for 1,976 years.

If you are saved by grace then why can you not be certain of your salvation? Why is this certainty that Evangelicals have considered a sin for Catholics?

Catholics may say it is all Grace but in practice it is Works.

 

[promethius]

How about this - we are saved by grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Oh man it is annoying when protestants take a hacksaw to the bible to deceive by destroying context. Perhaps you should read verse ten:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

That statement, Eph 2:8-10, perfectly sums up catholic doctrine of justification over the last 1,976 years. It’s also the ONLY way to understand the scriptures in which ALL aspects of scripture make sense. Your interpretation that OSAS and no effort at all on the part of the believer denies the covenential aspect of the Bible and God’s relationship with us and creates destructive contradictions within the bible…

ergo, your belief MUST be wrong, or the bible is flawed and either: 1) not the word of God, or 2) God doesn’t exist.

 

[promethius]

If you are saved by grace then why can you not be certain of your salvation? Why is this certainty that Evangelicals have considered a sin for Catholics?

Catholics may say it is all Grace but in practice it is Works.

yes, thank you for telling us what we believe. I’ve been a catholic for 20 years now, I never realized what we believe until you just told me… (/sarcasm)

In response to the first part of your post, the part that isn’t insultingly haughty, Catholics ARE sure of our salvation. If you’d read the other posts in this thread properly, you would know that we not only ARE sure of our salvation, but that this surity is more solid than any OSAS person can be assured.

 

[amberwin]

How about this - we are saved by grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

I have read this entire series of threads and I am curious to have a few questions responded to by any of the Catholic protesters (Protestants)

What is salvation?
What is faith?
What is grace?
As you understand or are taught.
Do not use scripture but as if I were a 2nd grader…in your own words. I believe the crux is in the understanding of each.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have read this entire series of threads and I am curious to have a few questions responded to by any of the Catholic protesters (Protestants)

What is salvation?
What is faith?
What is grace?
As you understand or are taught.
Do not use scripture but as if I were a 2nd grader…in your own words. I believe the crux is in the understanding of each.

Salvation - Being saved from the wrath of God for our sins to God as our Heavenly Father.

Faith - A strong trust or belief in what God tells us which causes us to act accordingly.

Grace - Unmerited favor God shows us based on the work and merit of Christ.

BTW… I’m not protesting

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

yes, thank you for telling us what we believe. I’ve been a catholic for 20 years now, I never realized what we believe until you just told me… (/sarcasm)

In response to the first part of your post, the part that isn’t insultingly haughty, Catholics ARE sure of our salvation. If you’d read the other posts in this thread properly, you would know that we not only ARE sure of our salvation, but that this surity is more solid than any OSAS person can be assured.

Are you sure that you will never commit a mortal sin, unconfessed and unrepented? If you die in a state of Mortal Sin you will not go to Heaven and thus are not saved, according to RCC doctrine. Ever noticed how many of the Catholic saints were fearful that they would burn in Hell?

To say you are sure of your salvation means that you know you will go to Heaven and a Catholic cannot say that. It is a sin of presumption in your teaching.

 

[promethius]

Are you sure that you will never commit a mortal sin, unconfessed and unrepented? If you die in a state of Mortal Sin you will not go to Heaven and thus are not saved, according to RCC doctrine. Ever noticed how many of the Catholic saints were fearful that they would burn in Hell?

To say you are sure of your salvation means that you know you will go to Heaven and a Catholic cannot say that. It is a sin of presumption in your teaching.

When we are in a state of saving Grace, we are confident that we will be saved. That much is assured. Am I sure that I will never commit a mortal sin? No, of course not. Unconfessed and unrepented? Well, if that were the case then I would most certainly be sure that I was NOT going to be saved since the unrepentant sinner does not love God.

Of course we should all be fearful of hell. But that does not mean that we do not have an assurance that salvific Grace can and does save. To deny our assurance that God’s Grace saves is to deny Christ Himself. This is not presumption, it is truth.

And it is very easy to tell when you’ve fallen from a state of Grace, thus it is easy to know that we should repent of sin and when. One cannot commit mortal sin by accident.

As to why we can be MORE sure of our salvation than OSAS types, let’s clarify: if you believe in OSAS, you believe that once you are saved (reborn) then you CANNOT become unsaved. So what about those people that fall away from the church? Well, OSAS has to be preserved by arguing that such people were never truly reborn to begin with. They may have BELIEVED that they were born again and saved. They may have FELT like they were on fire for God. To all appearances, both to themselves and to others, they WERE born again. However, they were, apparently, not as saved as they thought. If that is the case, then NO ONE who believes in OSAS can be sure they are saved and that their feeling of being born again is not simply a self deception from which they could fall at any time. In other words, OSAS believers rely on shaky self-realized FEELINGS at best as their “assurance” of salvation.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

As to why we can be MORE sure of our salvation than OSAS types, let’s clarify: if you believe in OSAS, you believe that once you are saved (reborn) then you CANNOT become unsaved. **So what about those people that fall away from the church? **Well, OSAS has to be preserved by arguing that such people were never truly reborn to begin with. They may have BELIEVED that they were born again and saved. They may have FELT like they were on fire for God. To all appearances, both to themselves and to others, they WERE born again. However, they were, apparently, not as saved as they thought. If that is the case, then NO ONE who believes in OSAS can be sure they are saved and that their feeling of being born again is not simply a self deception from which they could fall at any time. In other words, OSAS believers rely on shaky self-realized FEELINGS at best as their “assurance” of salvation.

We do not believe that the Church is a visible institution, so if someone leaves their faith community they have not left the Church.

I have tried to believe many other things yet it never seems right. When I realized that Catholicism does not teach the Gospel as I first believed it, I had to leave, even though I still liked the RCC.

There are so many contrary beliefs that can grab someones interest but if you have truly believed and understood the Gospel then you we will see that they all pale in comparison. I don’t doubt that someone can forget that they are already saved and become confused though, it happened to me.

You practice Catholicism so you can reach salvation. We who understand the Gospel already have salvation. World of difference.

 

[po18guy]

You are right there and I know this from personal experience. Many Protestants who think that they can lose their salvation are in the same boat as Catholics.

I was led to the Lord as a child but did not really start to take an interest in the faith until my 20s. My pastor at the time always spoke out against what he called the “once saved always saved” doctrine, he was wrong though, when we believe the Gospel we have eternal security.

Only when one realizes that salvation is a 100% free gift that we recieve on faith when we trust in Christ as Saviour can we have piece of mind.

Catholics and Protestants who think that salvation can be lost or that it requires any kind of good works will always be in a precarious situation.

First: know that your beliefs are extremely new to Christianity, and were neither taught nor practiced in the first 1,900 years. Truthfully, it sounds to me like you are preaching a ‘new gospel’, a vastly different one from that of our Lord:

Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 (King James Version)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 (King James Version)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 15:6 (New International Version)
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Your very trendy, recent, fashionable and man-made “argument” is absolutely destroyed by the words of Jesus. Good luck.

 

[crazzeto]

Again, Paul is not speaking about individuals.

How do you cut off a group with out cutting off an individual? Seriously now, you have any idea how illogical your argument is? He’s talking to Christians.

He is speaking about Gentile believers as a group. Paul could be addressing the failure and pride of the nation of Israel with the exclusion of outsiders (Gentiles). The best way to interpert Scripture is with the rest of Scripture to avoid an inaccurate conclusion on a topic.

Generally this means not twisting the meaning of scripture as you have here.

Our security is in the promises of God that He makes to those who are actually united to Christ.

Our security is that God will uphold his part of the bargin, it’s not “you have faith in christ so you just go to heaven”. seriously… Let me give you a senario. Lets say for instance, that I have absoulte faith in what you profess. That no matter what, I’m going to go to heaven, because Jesus is my Saviour. Nothing, can send me to hell. So… To prove my point, I go on a killing spree, I manage to take out 50 random people before shooting my self in the head. Do I go to heaven?

God does not undo what He has done. Once you are adopted into the kingdom of God based on Christ alone, you are an eternal citizen of the kingdom of light. Rejoice because our security is in the promises of God for those who are in Christ. And we know it is impossible for God to lie. The nation of Israel (visible church) always had a mix of true believers and unbelievers. What is a true jew, but…

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.” - D.A. Carson

Just answer the above question.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

First: know that your beliefs are extremely new to Christianity, and were neither taught nor practiced in the first 1,900 years. Truthfully, it sounds to me like you are preaching a ‘new gospel’, a vastly different one from that of our Lord:

Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 (King James Version)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 (King James Version)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 15:6 (New International Version)
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Your very trendy, recent, fashionable and man-made “argument” is absolutely destroyed by the words of Jesus. Good luck.

True believers will always believe, they may become confused and misled for a time but they can never fully believe anything else.

Those verses are refering to the tribulation and are encouragement for believers that the Lord will save them from their persecution.

The branches are Christians who live a bad life, they are useless for service, their life is a waste but I don’t think that is refering to Hell.

You think that your good works matter to God? Salvation is a gift and if you try to offer God anything you have rejected that gift.

 

[Tomb54]

I would like to apologize if my post was offensive to anyone. That was not my intent.
I would find the idea that salvation is not assured disturbing. That having been said I can say that there is a flaw with the once saved, always saved thology. If you are elect you also regenerate. Election and repentance go hand in hand. So when you sin are you really electt? You see it comes full circle and you still aren’t sure of your salvation.

The question is also even if you do not sin are you really the elect? Calvin said no that does not prove anything but if you are the elect you better belief. Even if you are one of the elect guarantee was not a guarantee because you never knew if you were one of the elect you could only guess based on what the bible said. So yes you are right even the Protestant belief of assurance is not assured.

Catholic believe by accepting God’s Grace and living a life full in this grace you will go to heaven but you see we are told not to judge ourselves because only God truly knows our heart. This also falls into the sin area and where we get venial and mortal sin because “all sin” but many Christians do not do it intentionally thus you may hurt your path to God but you are not losing your salvation. In fact the bible says this.There are sin that will cause you to lose salvation but other that will not. I can find this for you if you need to see it.