Lack of security in salvation

[ryanoneil]

In all honesty, I have no idea how it could be different. We are describing the same thing with different words. Our differences could very well be semantics at this point.

There is the Molinist view that is different and Catholics are free to believe it.

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The reason Catholics don’t use the term “double-predestination,” is the inference that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation. We reject that.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is the Molinist view that is different and Catholics are free to believe it.

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The reason Catholics don’t use the term “double-predestination,” is the inference that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation. We reject that.

That’s similar to Protestantism too. We tend to be either Arminians or Calvinists on these issues. Double-predestination is simply carrying out the issues to an honest conclusion.

 

[paul_c]

That’s similar to Protestantism too. We tend to be either Arminians or Calvinists on these issues. Double-predestination is simply carrying out the issues to an honest conclusion.

Catholics, thomist, molinist, or whatever, are NOT free to believe in double predestination. Some are predestined to Heaven. None are predestined for hell. Hell is the result of an individual freely turning away from God. God wishes for all to be saved, but does not force salvation on anyone. This is the clear teaching of the church

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is the Molinist view that is different and Catholics are free to believe it.

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The reason Catholics don’t use the term “double-predestination,” is the inference that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation. We reject that.

Sure, I used to have troubles with double-predestination for years. Most Protestants would probably reject predestination and of course double-predestination. I have come to the conclusion that if God is the cause of salvation through enabling sovereign grace, then God would have to pass over those He did not give that kind of grace which those who are being saved received. I still see Thomist predestination as double-predestination because I don’t see any way around it. Mediate on the Thomist view and let me know why it wouldn’t be a form of double-predestination. I’m sure you guys realize that Arminianism is the predominate Protestant view in the 21st century church.

 

[paul_c]

Sure, I used to have troubles with double-predestination for years. Most Protestants would probably reject predestination and of course double-predestination. I have come to the conclusion that if God is the cause of salvation through enabling sovereign grace, then God would have to pass over those He did not give that kind of grace which those who are being saved received. I still see Thomist predestination as double-predestination because I don’t see any way around it. Mediate on the Thomist view and let me know why it wouldn’t be a form of double-predestination. I’m sure you guys realize that Arminianism is the predominate Protestant view in the 21st century church.

God can take an active role in saving some, without actively condemning the rest. This is the Catholic view. Everyone has a chance to be saved.

 

[ryanoneil]

Sure, I used to have troubles with double-predestination for years. Most Protestants would probably reject predestination and of course double-predestination. I have come to the conclusion that if God is the cause of salvation through enabling sovereign grace, then God would have to pass over those He did not give that kind of grace which those who are being saved received. I still see Thomist predestination as double-predestination because I don’t see any way around it. Mediate on the Thomist view and let me know why it wouldn’t be a form of double-predestination. I’m sure you guys realize that Arminianism is the predominate Protestant view in the 21st century church.

Thomism can’t support double-predestination because it believe this.

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. we can only believe in negative reprobation (exclusion from heaven), not positive reprobation.

Which ones of these do you agree with and disagree with?

 

[Thing]

That’s similar to Protestantism too. We tend to be either Arminians or Calvinists on these issues. Double-predestination is simply carrying out the issues to an honest conclusion.

It does not carry it to an honest conclusion because it creates a God who creates evil and we already know that God is Good.

 

[2nd_Adam]

God can take an active role in saving some, without actively condemning the rest. This is the Catholic view. Everyone has a chance to be saved.

I can honestly receive your statement and agree with it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thomism can’t support double-predestination because it believe this.

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. we can only believe in negative reprobation (exclusion from heaven), not positive reprobation.

Which ones of these do you agree with and disagree with?

Before I answer, please post that Thomist Catholics reject point 4.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It does not carry it to an honest conclusion because it creates a God who creates evil and we already know that God is Good.

To be able to see double-predestination, we first need to understand the doctrine of predestination. Biblical predestination has to have two sides. Please explain your understanding of predestination which is a doctrine in Scripture.

 

[Thing]

To be able to see double-predestination, we first need to understand the doctrine of predestination. Biblical predestination has to have two sides. Please explain your understanding of predestination which is a doctrine in Scripture.

You must build your doctrine on this fact, - if your must build one;

One is good, God - Matt 19 17

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Thing
It does not carry it to an honest conclusion because it creates a God who creates evil and we already know that God is Good.

To be able to see double-predestination, we first need to understand the doctrine of predestination. Biblical predestination has to have two sides. Please explain your understanding of predestination which is a doctrine in Scripture.

You must build your doctrine on this fact, - if your must build one;

One is good, God - Matt 19 17

You lost me my friend. Predestination is a Christian doctrine. Please explain your understand of Predestination as being a Catholic Christian. Please use your own words too if you can.

This may help, God is love and God is Holy. I believe in a literal world wide flood that all perished with the exception of the remnant chosen by grace. God is perfectly Holy and just for destroying all of humanity apart from Noah and His family (predestined ones).

 

[Thing]

You lost me my friend. Predestination is a Christian doctrine. Please explain your understand of Predestination as being a Catholic Christian. Please use your own words too if you can.

This may help, God is love and God is Holy. I believe in a literal world wide flood that all perished with the exception of the remnant chosen by grace. God is perfectly Holy and just for destroying all of humanity apart from Noah and His family (predestined ones).

Who said predestination was not true?
I said your doctrine (as I understand it) was not honest.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Who said predestination was not true?
I said your doctrine (as I understand it) was not honest.

Please answer two questions.

1. Why is my doctrine of predestination not honest in your opinion?
2. What is your understanding of predestination?

 

[Thing]

Please answer two questions.

1. Why is my doctrine of predestination not honest in your opinion?
2. What is your understanding of predestination?

2nd Adam:

Double-predestination is simply carrying out the issues to an honest conclusion.

1. When you say ‘double’ you mean God predestines some men to hell.
   That makes God an evil God.

You already know that ‘One is good, God - Matt 19 17’

=> You are dishonest, IMHO.

1. My view is the Catholic view; that God has not predestined you to hell, Adam.

 

[paul_c]

1. When you say ‘double’ you mean God predestines some men to hell.
   That makes God an evil God.

You already know that ‘One is good, God - Matt 19 17’

=> You are dishonest, IMHO.

1. My view is the Catholic view; that God has not predestined you to hell, Adam.

no need to be judgmental…

 

[2nd_Adam]

1. When you say ‘double’ you mean God predestines some men to hell.
   That makes God an evil God.

You already know that ‘One is good, God - Matt 19 17’

=> You are dishonest, IMHO.

1. My view is the Catholic view; that God has not predestined you to hell, Adam.

We know God is good. The child’s prayer of “God is good, God is great… thank you for our food” is deeply profound. We know God has the power and ability to save each and every sinner to the praise of His glorious grace. But we know that not all we be saved. So in that light, please explain your view of predestination. A single sided predestination will lead to two conclusions: all will be saved, or all will be lost. I am saying that all views of predestination has two sides. God passes over the retrobate, leavining them to live out a life which deserves eternal condemnation.

God is outside of time. He knows beforehand who will be in Heaven and who will not be, prior to the creation of the world. If God did not change the factors to save all mankind, then He allows the retrobate to perish by His passive lack of action to save all mankind. That’s predestination… or more accurately double-predestination.

 

[tmac1956]

LIE.

SOURCE:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm

 

[tmac1956]

Predestination and free will is an enigma that the human mind can not fully understand. Some people think everything we do is predestined and you are either elect or not. Other’s think that humans have free will and you can choose to accept or reject God. The fact of the matter is both are right.

GramdpaMunster: That is also my understanding of the Catholic view.

 

[Thing]

no need to be judgmental…

That should have read your honest conclusion is not.