Lack of security in salvation

[2nd_Adam]

Hey- be nice! Guanophore has expressed his position without being unnecessarily provocative. His intent is to share the gospel with you, that is not a reason for insult but a cause that you each share. I have found that he has many wonderful things to share - including his love of our Lord, his knowledge of Scripture, and a temperment that you and I would do well to emulate…

Blessings!

Guanophore and I are spending more time together on the Sufficency thread (see link). Therefore, our postings here to each other need to be understood within the context of that thread. It seems Guanophore believes OT Saints are chosen by God by their own personal righteousness. That sure seems out of line with the gospel to me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508&page=31

 

[Philthy]

Guanophore and I are spending more time together on the Sufficency thread (see link). Therefore, our postings here to each other need to be understood within the context of that thread. It seems Guanophore believes OT Saints are chosen by God by their own personal righteousness. That sure seems out of line with the gospel to me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508&page=31

Hi 2nd Adam!

I read through some of the “context”, and I have to reiterate my comments:
Be nice! There is no good excuse for accusing others of having a low opinion of Scripture; for questioning whether they are worth your time; etc etc. Stick to the issues and refrain from personal attacks…

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

I guess it depends upon how you look at it…

I’ve got some very devout “bible believing” non-denominational Christian friends…
So while I see what you’re saying, I think that in the end, JustaServant is pretty much dead on. OSAS and SBFA are issues of comfort.

I didnt mean to disagree with him - or you! I really meant to point out that it was a problem in the Church very early on, and Paul didnt cut em any slack. Thanks!

Blessings!

 

[steve_b]

I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot.** If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose**.

Seems your quandry is with Luther’s theology. Isn’t he the one who said (paraphrased) I can commit adultery 1000 times a day and it won’t effect my salvation? Sin boldly but believe in God’s mercy more…or something like that? Was this supposed to be hyperbole? At minimum, It contradicts scripture, and could lead the ignorant and unstable to believe in a false sense of security, and that sin has no eternal consequence for one who thinks they have “faith”.

Fact: sin matters. Those who die with mortal sin on their soul will NOT enter heaven. That’s 100% scriptural

 

[2nd_Adam]

Seems your quandry is with Luther’s theology. Isn’t he the one who said (paraphrased) I can commit adultery 1000 times a day and it won’t effect my salvation? Sin boldly but believe in God’s mercy more…or something like that? Was this supposed to be hyperbole? At minimum, It contradicts scripture, and could lead the ignorant and unstable to believe in a false sense of security. That sin is inconsequencial to salvation.

Fact: sin matters. Those who die with mortal sin on their soul will NOT enter heaven.

Please give me a list of mortal sins.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi 2nd Adam!

I read through some of the “context”, and I have to reiterate my comments:
Be nice! There is no good excuse for accusing others of having a low opinion of Scripture; for questioning whether they are worth your time; etc etc. Stick to the issues and refrain from personal attacks…

Blessings!

It’s seem you should give Guan the same exhortation too. Does it bother you that Guan seems to imply that OT Saints are saved by their own personal righteousness?

 

[Thing]

Please give me a list of mortal sins.

Could you give us a list of sins that are’nt mortal?

 

[steve_b]

Please give me a list of mortal sins.

Haven’t we been over this before?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5735581&postcount=16

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5737828&postcount=29

Here’s a list of sins that will keep one out of heaven if they die with them on their soul

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness

Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM.
Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance

Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

Romans 16:17 dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves
Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5: 22 incite one to anger
Matthew 15: 18 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander

 

[Philthy]

It’s seem you should give Guan the same exhortation too. Does it bother you that Guan seems to imply that OT Saints are saved by their own personal righteousness?

Nice try! I didnt see anything Guan posted that accused you of not being worth his time or anything even remotely close to that. Even if he did, how does that absolve you? Dont get me wrong - Ive done worse, and I dont go by Philthy for nothing - but I’m not one to blame my behavior on others…Or dont you think it matters when we are uncharitable to others? Is it a practical consequence of your theology that apologizing is more difficult since it doesnt affect your positional relationship with Christ? Inquiring lurkers wish to know.

Does it bother me that Guan “seems to imply” OT Saints are saved “by” “their own” personal righteousness? Hardly - its a pretty vaguely worded question of a non-essential nature that I largely attribute to a misunderstanding between the two of you. What I do know is that Guan is Catholic and that Catholics don’t believe in Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. I also know that if he has a deficient understanding of a specific article of faith he will turn to the appointed elders for clarification and submit to their authority rather than relying on his own intelligence (cf Prov3:5-6).

Blessings!

 

[crazzeto]

Please give me a list of mortal sins.

No such enumeration is required when you have the definition of sin at your fingertips:

BTW if you want access to the footnotes, simply follow this link and click the appropriate citation:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.shtml

1852
There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."127

1853
Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

1854
Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855
Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856
Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us—that is, charity—necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130

1857
For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859
Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860
Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861
Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

…

 

[JustaServant]

Fortunately most of the OSAS advocates do not abuse their freedom in Christ IMHO.

How each individual reacts to this false doctrine is unmeasurable. It remains a false and dangerous doctrine. I’m not talking about the depraved OSAS preacher who thinks he can continue to bed women in his congregation because he feels he has free pass. No, I’m talking about Joe and Jane pew warmer.
The results I saw while across the Tiber was a dwarfed and superficial spirituallity that does not transend into reality. IOW, they have no true way of dealing with sin. Very few continue in sin because they think they have a free pass. What often happens, and I saw this firsthand, is they fall into despair over sin and question thier chrisitanity. They have no Confessional, so in counselling the preacher just keeps reiterating the OSAS line, which gives no real comfort to the sinner.
If they continue in sin they are ‘shunned’, said to be ‘put on a shelf’. They are not ‘lost’, they are marginalized into a kind of mortal ‘Limbo’ and continue to fail because they feel they cannot live up to the kind of christianity others have.
OSAS for them, becomes a mental and emotional Hell.
I remember me and my wife sitting in a kitchen of a poor lady who was ‘shunned’ and forever made to remember her sin by the ‘super-spiritual’ christians around her. I’ll never forget the look on her face. It showed the emptiness of OSAS. She was in a mortal ‘Limbo’.
She clung to OSAS, because it was all she had. She would rather live with the guilt than do away with false doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

LOL… Scripture sure doesn’t mean much to you does it? With Scripture abuse like this, I wonder why I even bother with you. You sure seem to refuse to enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone. I’m not sure why? Maybe you really believe in the sovereignit of man in salvation after-all… work work work your way to Heaven.

2nd, you seem unusually hostile and insolent today. If I have said something to inflame your wrath, I am sorry. It was not my intention to upset you. I am not sure why you are making these slanderous comments. The fact that I understand scripture differently than you does not mean it has “little value” to me.

I also find it accusatory (as well as erroneous) for you to say that I believe in the “sovereignty of man”, or that anyone can “work” their way to heaven. We have covered these issues before and on the other thread. It seems that your anti-Catholic polemics and hostility are leaking out. One of the forum rules is that you must respect the Catholic faith. You don’t have to agree with it, but CAF is not a venue for you to slander and disparage our beliefs. If you want to do that, you will have to open your own web site.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore and I are spending more time together on the Sufficency thread (see link). Therefore, our postings here to each other need to be understood within the context of that thread. It seems Guanophore believes OT Saints are chosen by God by their own personal righteousness. That sure seems out of line with the gospel to me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508&page=31

If it seems that way to you, 2nd, it is because you are not understanding what I am saying, and you also do not understand Catholic theology, which states the opposite of whtat it “seems” to be to you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If it seems that way to you, 2nd, it is because you are not understanding what I am saying, and you also do not understand Catholic theology, which states the opposite of whtat it “seems” to be to you.

It’s tough when you have Zee the Mormon trying to defend you with his Mormom perspective.

 

[guanophore]

Please give me a list of mortal sins.

The best basic list is the ten commandments, and after that, the seven deadly sins.Paul makes lots of lists of sins that keep people out of heaven.

It’s seem you should give Guan the same exhortation too. Does it bother you that Guan seems to imply that OT Saints are saved by their own personal righteousness?

I am sure this does not bother Philthy a bit. We have both been on CAF together for a long time. It is not news that I am staunch in my Catholic faith. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves. Your avoidance of the topic by throwing up these smokescreens is rather sad, 2nd.

I also know that if he has a deficient understanding of a specific article of faith he will turn to the appointed elders for clarification and submit to their authority rather than relying on his own intelligence (cf Prov3:5-6)

.

This is certainly true. Do you happen to know if 2nd has been made part of the Magesterium? Has he replaced my local Eparch?

 

[guanophore]

It’s tough when you have Zee the Mormon trying to defend you with his Mormom perspective.

I could see why it would be tough, being separated from the Apostolic Traditions as you are, but hang in there, because I am sure we can work it out.

The truth is that Apostolic Teaching can be found in all of those claiming Chrisitanity (even those that the Apostles would not consider Chrisitan). Everyone who uses scripture is able to extract the Teaching to some degree. There are some aspects of Mormonism that still retain the Apostolic teaching, just as there are some in Islam, and Judiasm, etc. Truth transcends all of our religions boundaries and identifiers, aa I am sure you will agree.

 

[ryanoneil]

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (John 15:1-10)

We have security by remaining in Jesus (a branch on the vine). If we do not bear fruit, we are cut off and we wither up and die. Paul makes this same point. We can lose our salvation.

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. (Rom 11:20-23)

 

[2nd_Adam]

I could see why it would be tough, being separated from the Apostolic Traditions as you are, but hang in there, because I am sure we can work it out.

The truth is that Apostolic Teaching can be found in all of those claiming Chrisitanity (even those that the Apostles would not consider Chrisitan). Everyone who uses scripture is able to extract the Teaching to some degree. There are some aspects of Mormonism that still retain the Apostolic teaching, just as there are some in Islam, and Judiasm, etc. Truth transcends all of our religions boundaries and identifiers, aa I am sure you will agree.

I don’t think your view on Islam and Judiasm is the traditonal view of the church. It is quite the new ecumencial view of modern day Catholicism.

 

[paul_c]

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (John 15:1-10)

We have security by remaining in Jesus (a branch on the vine). If we do not bear fruit, we are cut off and we wither up and die. Paul makes this same point. We can lose our salvation.

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. (Rom 11:20-23)

Its interesting. I was reading John a couple of days ago and was struck by how chapter 14 leads into this discussion of the vine and the branches.

John 14-21 says:
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

this demonstrates that you need to follow the commandments and that requires continuity.

 

[ryanoneil]

Its interesting. I was reading John a couple of days ago and was struck by how chapter 14 leads into this discussion of the vine and the branches.

John 14-21 says:
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

this demonstrates that you need to follow the commandments and that requires continuity.

and a few verses later it says

Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. (John 14:23)