Lack of security in salvation

[guanophore]

I don’t think your view on Islam and Judiasm is the traditonal view of the church. It is quite the new ecumencial view of modern day Catholicism.

It seems that it might be difficult for you to make an assessment on this point, since I have never shared my view on Islam and Judiaism at CAF.

You have made some inacurrate assumptions about my beliefs from reading my postings.

Have you ever considered reading the posts from the perspective of the person who wrote them, rather than projecting your own ideas into them?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I don’t think your view on Islam and Judiasm is the traditonal view of the church. It is quite the new ecumencial view of modern day Catholicism.

It seems that it might be difficult for you to make an assessment on this point, since I have never shared my view on Islam and Judiaism at CAF.

You have made some inacurrate assumptions about my beliefs from reading my postings.

Have you ever considered reading the posts from the perspective of the person who wrote them, rather than projecting your own ideas into them?

Please let us know for the record of your view of Islam and Judiasm. Does God save Muslims and Jews apart from receiving the gospel of God’s grace about His Son?

 

[paul_c]

Please let us know for the record of your view of Islam and Judiasm. Does God save Muslims and Jews apart from receiving the gospel of God’s grace about His Son?

Here is the CCC view:

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

As you can see, the Church recognizes that both the Jewish and Islamic faith teach some of the truth of the Gospel and it prepares them to recieve the Gospel in full. At the same time, there is no salvation except through the Catholic Church. This is rendered explicit by this statement in paragraph 846: Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. thsi is coupled with the "invincible ignorance " in line 847:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

 

[guanophore]

Please let us know for the record of your view of Islam and Judiasm.

2nd, I am amazed at the lengths you will go to in order to avoid the discussion about Cornelius. I can only surmise that you have the same difficulty I do in reconciling this scriptural passage with Calvanism.

 Does God save Muslims and Jews apart from receiving the gospel of God's grace about His Son?

No, there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. The reason that there is no salvation outside the Church is because the Church is the manifestation of His saving grace upon the earth (until He comes again).

All who are saved are joined, sometimes imperfectly and unknowingly, to His One Body, the Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, I am amazed at the lengths you will go to in order to avoid the discussion about Cornelius. I can only surmise that you have the same difficulty I do in reconciling this scriptural passage with Calvanism.

I already gave you my answer in regards to Cornelius many days ago. I even quoted the Scripture reference from Acts 10 to 11. Keep up with us!