Laity Worshiping like Priests?

[Mickey]

Strider:

Am I the only one bothered by this?

No.

 

[netmilsmom]

Strider:

The use of the orans position by the faithful leads to another distraction that I’ve complained about before. People with their arms extended at waist level, palms up, almost reflexively make a “back atcha” motion when responding “and also with you.” It looks like their throwing an imaginary beach ball back to the priest, and the constant motion is extremely distracting.
Am I the only one bothered by this?

Or the “We lift them up to the Lord” Free throw. You know, the bend at the knees, popup and lift of the palms.

You are not the only one bothered by all of it. Add me to the list.

 

[Eireann]

Photini:

The worst, to me, is the raising of hands for the Our Father– and many in the pews even holding hands with their neighbor, upraised, during this prayer.

I told a lady at a prayer meeting that I don’t hold hands, that put an end to hand holding for me at least.
(holding hands and swaying to and fro like the ocean didn’t exactly appeal to me)

This group were from the Charismatic’s that had run it’s course, the priest called a day to it, but it does seep into other prayer groups.
It’s no big deal for me, it’s just that I wasn’t taught the faith this way, and don’t care for it.

By the way, oh how I miss the Communion Rail!!!

Agreed, I miss the Communion rail too with the spotless white cloth that you put your hands under.
But it’s more important to receive Jesus, even though I don’t care for some of the changes, but it’s hard to please everybody.

 

[OhioBob]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Or the “We lift them up to the Lord” Free throw. You know, the bend at the knees, popup and lift of the palms.

What’s next, the “high five” of peace?

 

[OhioBob]

I love the rail as well. It’s hard to find any more, but I’ve bumped into it here and there. Definately a welcome surprise when it turns up.

As an aside, I attended a funeral recently that was offered in the Byzantine rite. While I am don’t necessarily favor the Byzantine liturgy, there was certainly no doubt about the sacred nature of the surroundings, the purpose or the content.

 

[Strider]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Or the “We lift them up to the Lord” Free throw. You know, the bend at the knees, popup and lift of the palms.

You are not the only one bothered by all of it. Add me to the list.

SWISH! Nuthin’ but net!
Good call. None of this stuff is Catholic. Our unity is the Eucharist, and through it, we have more unity than all the hand holders in the world.
One caveat, though; we do use postures (kneeling, standing) and motions (striking our breast in penance). We don’t stand like robots, but we use Catholic gestures, or at least we should.
Oh, and for those who say these are ancient gestures from the early Church, ask them if they want to go back to St. Paul’s “holy kiss.” I don’t have the Scripture reference for that, but it’s in one of his epistles.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Strider:

SWISH! Nuthin’ but net!
Good call. None of this stuff is Catholic. Our unity is the Eucharist, and through it, we have more unity than all the hand holders in the world.
One caveat, though; we do use postures (kneeling, standing) and motions (striking our breast in penance). We don’t stand like robots, but we use Catholic gestures, or at least we should.
Oh, and for those who say these are ancient gestures from the early Church, ask them if they want to go back to St. Paul’s “holy kiss.” I don’t have the Scripture reference for that, but it’s in one of his epistles.

I agree regarding posture. The Church teaches that we are creatures with both a body and spirit. Posture is about conforming our body to our mind and spirit. Personally, while I don’t like holding hands or the orans, I do think that much of the opposition to these postures has an undercurrent that insufficiently acknowledges the effort of those who do advocate hand holding, orans and even the “back atcha” when one says "and also with you"to conform body with spirit. IMHO these are less issues of “right or wrong” but ones of toleration and respect for those who have different views.

 

[Elzee]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Or the “We lift them up to the Lord” Free throw. You know, the bend at the knees, popup and lift of the palms.

You are not the only one bothered by all of it. Add me to the list.

Hilarious!
Add me to the list also. Our priest will also say ‘thank you’ after the congregation responds ‘and also with you’, before he tells us to extend the sign of peace to others. I know he’s trying to be polite, but, I’m just waiting for the ‘you’re welcome’ to slowly work it’s way into the mix…!

 

[Strider]

Orionthehunter:

I agree regarding posture. The Church teaches that we are creatures with both a body and spirit. Posture is about conforming our body to our mind and spirit. Personally, while I don’t like holding hands or the orans, I do think that much of the opposition to these postures has an undercurrent that insufficiently acknowledges the effort of those who do advocate hand holding, orans and even the “back atcha” when one says "and also with you"to conform body with spirit. IMHO these are less issues of “right or wrong” but ones of toleration and respect for those who have different views.

I have to disagree. As with Catholic thought, there is a distinctly Catholic method of using the body in prayer, and a distrinctly Protestant method. Within the last twenty years, the Protestant has been brought into the Catholic Church. That’s why there are so many threads about posture, motions, etc, on these boards. Older Catholics instinctively recognize and are uncomfortable with “un - Catholic” postures.
I know that it may be a small thing to some of you, but it’s the old “boil the frog” thing. After all of the V II abuses and dissident clergy, some of us are very sensitive to things that are not 100% Catholic, especially when they encroach on the Liturgy and the Eucharist.
We have to draw the line somewhere, and it might as well be as close to the starting line as we can get. At least, that’s my view.

 

[MarkInOregon]

paramedicgirl:

I am uncomfortable holding someone’s hand in church, and others should not force it on someone who has their hands folded in prayer. It feels like they are groping you when they try to dislogde your hands!

While I prefer not to hold hands during the Our Father–it seems very “unchristian” to be uncomfortable holding a fellow Christians hand during a prayer. We are called to love one another and the Mass is our Community worship where we come together to worship together–we are not islands–we are one body in Christ. Be glad you were not around in the early Church when they kissed as a sign of peace.
Prefering not to upset my fellow parishioners–I will hold hands with the person next to me and I can tell you that that simple act brought me much closer to an older lady parishioner in our parish–who had these arthritic hands and was rather bent over and required a walker–the kind of person most of us seem to avoid–and yet that simple gesture, that simple touch brought us together and enriched our worship and our expenience of Gods love for us–the same love we should have for each other. I have seen this same thing in my young children.

the peace of Christ
Mark

 

[netmilsmom]

What’s next, the “high five” of peace?
[/quote]

(shhhhhh, don’t give anyone ideas…)

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

I agree regarding posture. The Church teaches that we are creatures with both a body and spirit. Posture is about conforming our body to our mind and spirit. Personally, while I don’t like holding hands or the orans, I do think that much of the opposition to these postures has an undercurrent that insufficiently acknowledges the effort of those who do advocate hand holding, orans and even the “back atcha” when one says "and also with you"to conform body with spirit. IMHO these are less issues of “right or wrong” but ones of toleration and respect for those who have different views.

Then how about if someone, somewhere within driving distance of those who want it are given a Post Vatican II liturgy with no innovations.
When that happens, the complaining will stop.
Where is the respect for those who watch EWTN and want that in their parish?

 

[netmilsmom]

MarkInOregon:

While I prefer not to hold hands during the Our Father–it seems very “unchristian” to be uncomfortable holding a fellow Christians hand during a prayer. We are called to love one another and the Mass is our Community worship where we come together to worship together–we are not islands–we are one body in Christ. Be glad you were not around in the early Church when they kissed as a sign of peace.
Prefering not to upset my fellow parishioners–I will hold hands with the person next to me and I can tell you that that simple act brought me much closer to an older lady parishioner in our parish–who had these arthritic hands and was rather bent over and required a walker–the kind of person most of us seem to avoid–and yet that simple gesture, that simple touch brought us together and enriched our worship and our expenience of Gods love for us–the same love we should have for each other. I have seen this same thing in my young children.

the peace of Christ
Mark

My Christianity is outside of the Holy Mass which has much more Christian undertones.
I would rather check on the lady at home and see if she is alright. See if she needs a meal or just someone to talk to. That lovely lady had a touch at mass. Perhaps she could use a “touch” at home.
It makes me laugh when someone who doesn’t want to hold another’s hand in mass is pegged as unChristian. Some of us prefer to join spiritually in church and keep the physical where it is actually needed.
Why does it have to be a physical touch? We are

 

[mastda]

Please help me here, what is the conclusion. Is it OK to hold hands during The Our Father? Since we reverted back My wife, myself and our boys have held hands but not with others. We saw many families do this and we just thought it was the to do it.

However I personally dont like it when I see parishioners with their hands up, some even put them above their head like flagging a plane.

 

[netmilsmom]

mastda:

Please help me here, what is the conclusion. Is it OK to hold hands during The Our Father? Since we reverted back My wife, myself and our boys have held hands but not with others. We saw many families do this and we just thought it was the to do it.

However I personally dont like it when I see parishioners with their hands up, some even put them above their head like flagging a plane.

NO Bishop would ever tell a family that they cannot hold hands, nor friends, nor family members. However, in many diocese, handholding is being discouraged as a congregation. Check with your Bishop.

Thank You Lord, the only time I have seen the hands up above their heads was a Benny Hinn broadcast. If I ever saw it in my church, I would blow a clot. Not a bad place to die, though.

 

[MusicMan]

As a matter of history, I suspect that handholding snuck in the door with the widespread eccumenical movement. It probably started simultaneously in many small towns across the US at an eccumenical community Thanksgiving service.

In a lot of small American towns you’ll find the Such-and-Such-Town Community Clergy Association, or some such “council” of the local clergy. For a long time the Catholic priests either weren’t apart of this gathering or attended out of courtesy but didn’t participate much. From these Associations came eccumenical Good Friday services for the local Protestant churches as well as eccumenical Thanksgiving services too.

Fifteen to twenty years ago, the Catholic priests started to get more involved in these councils, leading to Catholic participation in the eccumencial community Thanksgiving services about ten-fifteen years ago. The hand-holding was probably the outgrowth of one of the Protestant ministers suggesting a way that they could show their oneness as a community at the service – obviously the Catholic unity of the Eucharist wasn’t an option. Holding-hands during the Lord’s Prayer was porbably what they came up with. A bunch of these small town Catholic priests liked this innovation and took it back to their parishes and it spread from there.

No… we’re not allowed to hold-hands during the Lord’s Prayer at Mass. But we’re not disallowed either. For a long time the plan was to mandate the laity use the orans position via one of the 21st Century editions of the GIRM. It didn’t happen in 2000, and I don’t think it will happen in the latest translation which is due out soon in the US.

There were two things holding the orans position up. First was the position. The priest has a “higher” orans position, holding his arms almost straight out. There was the concern of confusion between the laity and the priests using the same position. They solved this by a “lower” orans position for the laity, arms outstretched at the waist.

The second problem was the deacon’s position. The deacon, an ordained clergyman, is instructed by the GIRM to fold his hands in front of his chest (not sure on exact wording). There was, again, the issue of confusion – why are the laity doing what the priest does, but the deacon isn’t. I don’t think they’ve solved this problem.

The liturgy purests don’t want you holding-hands with the people around you. The liturgy progressives don’t really care.

One thing is for certain: for Catholics, our unity is through participation in the Eucharist.

 

[paramedicgirl]

MarkInOregon:

While I prefer not to hold hands during the Our Father–it seems very “unchristian” to be uncomfortable holding a fellow Christians hand during a prayer. We are called to love one another and the Mass is our Community worship where we come together to worship together–we are not islands–we are one body in Christ. Be glad you were not around in the early Church when they kissed as a sign of peace.
Prefering not to upset my fellow parishioners–I will hold hands with the person next to me and I can tell you that that simple act brought me much closer to an older lady parishioner in our parish–who had these arthritic hands and was rather bent over and required a walker–the kind of person most of us seem to avoid–and yet that simple gesture, that simple touch brought us together and enriched our worship and our expenience of Gods love for us–the same love we should have for each other. I have seen this same thing in my young children.

the peace of Christ
Mark

On the same token, I feel it is unchristain-like (and un-Catholic) to force the person next to you to hold hands. What are they thinking? Just because they feel closer by holding hands, doesn’t mean the other person does. I know some people who would never come back to Mass if they knew they were going to be forced to hold hands with others. This is not in everyone’s comfort zone. We are united at Mass without holding hands.

As far as those older, alone parishioners go, I make every effort to speak to them after Mass. I often find out little things like, “Today’s my birthday - I’m 83 years old.” I never avoid these people, as I have learned to love them through my work, and I show them I care through personal attention.

 

[caroljm36]

NWUArmyROTC:

The Orans posture for the Our Father is hardly a dishonor to it. Cardinal George prefers that posture for the congregation during the Mass. Holding Hands I agree is a little too “kumbaya” but not the Orans. It is merely one opening ones hands to God. There was thought that the new edition of the GIRM would mandate it as the proper posture, that did not happen sadly. It would have put an end to hand holding.

Wow I am confused. Last year the head pastor made a point to instruct us on the new GIRM before Mass, and I admit I wasn’t tuning in to every word, but thereafter we all stopped holding hands. So I assumed that was in the GIRM. What gives?

By the way, what IS “orans”? Is that the hands-held-up-and-out thing?

What about all the handshaking? I could do without that too.

 

[Mickey]

caroljm36:

By the way, what IS “orans”? Is that the hands-held-up-and-out thing?.

YES

caroljm36:

What about all the handshaking? I could do without that too.

The handshake of peace will always be there.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Mickey:

YES

The handshake of peace will always be there.

I recently attended a Tridentine Mass in Calgary at St. Anthony’s parish, and there was no sign of peace.

For the NO Mass, since the GIRM states that the priest* may * add, “Let us offer each other a sign of peace”, it is not a liturgical abuse for the priest to either include or omit it. They just can’t move it to a different part of the Mass.