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netmilsmom
Guest
John Lilburne said:
I’m sorry, could you please point to where this says anything about Holding Hands for the Our Father?
(I never thought I’d be arguing for this)
- Status
I’m sorry, could you please point to where this says anything about Holding Hands for the Our Father?
(I never thought I’d be arguing for this)
A
Angels_Watchin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Just a reminder, this thread (and my statements) are not about holding hands for the Our Father (thread title is “Laity worshipping like priests?”
It’s specifically mimiking priests (orans - etc) that I responded to and in that realm your response is N/A. And again, - NO BISHOP CAN REQUEST THAT YOU HOLD HANDS. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT. So, if he told you to, he does NOT have to be obeyed. It’s not about obedience at that point. HE CANNOT TELL YOU TO. PERIOD.
Just as if he mentioned in passing that he supports women priests - he has no authority on that. This, “Oh, my pastor says we’re supposed to do this,” or ,“My bishop says we can do that”, THIS IS PROTESTANT THEOLOGY!! Everybody “doing their own thing”. IT IS NOT CATHOLIC!
The priest/pastor/bishop can only speak on things they have the authority to speak on, and the authority they are given on specific situations comes from ROME and IT IS VERY LIMITED!
Bishop is the “regulator of the mass” not the legislator of the mass. His job is to insure that the rules that come from Rome are followed.
Rome is the Legislator. (capital “L” because Rome speaks for God).
Blessings,
Angel
It IS my (and your) job to know whether or not the bishop has the authority to do or say something - that’s what the documents of the church are for. For all to read.
Just a reminder, this thread (and my statements) are not about holding hands for the Our Father (thread title is “Laity worshipping like priests?”
It’s specifically mimiking priests (orans - etc) that I responded to and in that realm your response is N/A. And again, - NO BISHOP CAN REQUEST THAT YOU HOLD HANDS. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT. So, if he told you to, he does NOT have to be obeyed. It’s not about obedience at that point. HE CANNOT TELL YOU TO. PERIOD.
Just as if he mentioned in passing that he supports women priests - he has no authority on that. This, “Oh, my pastor says we’re supposed to do this,” or ,“My bishop says we can do that”, THIS IS PROTESTANT THEOLOGY!! Everybody “doing their own thing”. IT IS NOT CATHOLIC!
The priest/pastor/bishop can only speak on things they have the authority to speak on, and the authority they are given on specific situations comes from ROME and IT IS VERY LIMITED!
Bishop is the “regulator of the mass” not the legislator of the mass. His job is to insure that the rules that come from Rome are followed.
Rome is the Legislator. (capital “L” because Rome speaks for God).
Blessings,
Angel
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
It is very clear.
It does not say, “Oh, by the way, you can’t stand on the seats or hang from the chandeliers, either!” so it also doesn’t say, “**Don’t **hold hands.”
The GIRM tells us what **TO **DO, not what **NOT **to do.
If we HAD to hold hands, the GIRM WOULD SAY SO.
What the GIRM does say (#43), that is up to the priest regarding posture and gestures is quoted below:
**With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
The missal (approved by Rome) does not speak of holding hands, therefore, not allowed.
Blessings,
Angel
If we were supposed to hold hands THE GIRM WOULD SAY SO. It tells us when to sit, stand kneel, give the sign of peace, bow before receiving the Holy Eucharist, bow during the creed…
It is very clear.
It does not say, “Oh, by the way, you can’t stand on the seats or hang from the chandeliers, either!” so it also doesn’t say, “**Don’t **hold hands.”
The GIRM tells us what **TO **DO, not what **NOT **to do.
If we HAD to hold hands, the GIRM WOULD SAY SO.
What the GIRM does say (#43), that is up to the priest regarding posture and gestures is quoted below:
**With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
The missal (approved by Rome) does not speak of holding hands, therefore, not allowed.
Blessings,
Angel
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palmas85
Guest
Orans posture taught in the 50’s?? I don’t think so, in fact I’m positive it wasn’t/ But I can tell you basically when it started, at least to my recolllection, about 1974 or 75. That was when the Priests first started really telling everybody that we were all called to the Priesthood and that being so we should all worship in unison with them, the ordained ministers and use the same posture.
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ncjohn
Guest
Angels Watchin:
With due respect to your knowledge and your obvious passion on this, a flat out statement of “not allowed” just doesn’t square with the evidence or the reality.
I agree that the GIRM doesn’t specificy it, but the GIRM doesn’t specify many things involving the faithful and is not definitive in and of itself in that regard.
This practice has been around, and questioned, for at least 30 years. There was a Noticiae written in 1975 addressing whether holding hands during the Our Father could be substituted for the sign of peace. The answer was a clear negative, but there was no repudiation of the holding hands itself. The USCCB site, when asked about the Orans position has a simple statement that there is *no proscribed posture * during the Our Father, again with no repudiation of Orans or holding hands.
In spite of its widespread use over many years and the many questions, two revisions of the GIRM have failed to address it. More importantly, the recently released Redemptionis Sacramentum, written specifically to deal with liturgical abuses, specifically did not address it although it dealt with many other issues including how the priest is to handle the sign of peace.
Even within the hierarchy there is great disagreement about the issue with some strongly against and others in favor, while others appear to just be neutral. Regardless, there is nothing of force from Rome that I have seen or heard of condemning it.
As such, since I see you to be a definite child of the Church, I think you would have to agree that we are not in a position to make proclamations for the Church that the Church itself has failed to make. I fully respect your opinion that it *should not * be allowed as I understand the reasoning against it. I also have great sympathy for those, including myself, who find it a very meaningful expression of our devotion to OUR Father.
In the end, we really just need to be charitable from both sides in not trying to force our preference on those around us and in not judging the piety or devotion of those who might express their devotion a little differently than what we might like.
Peace,
Hi Angel,
With due respect to your knowledge and your obvious passion on this, a flat out statement of “not allowed” just doesn’t square with the evidence or the reality.
I agree that the GIRM doesn’t specificy it, but the GIRM doesn’t specify many things involving the faithful and is not definitive in and of itself in that regard.
This practice has been around, and questioned, for at least 30 years. There was a Noticiae written in 1975 addressing whether holding hands during the Our Father could be substituted for the sign of peace. The answer was a clear negative, but there was no repudiation of the holding hands itself. The USCCB site, when asked about the Orans position has a simple statement that there is *no proscribed posture * during the Our Father, again with no repudiation of Orans or holding hands.
In spite of its widespread use over many years and the many questions, two revisions of the GIRM have failed to address it. More importantly, the recently released Redemptionis Sacramentum, written specifically to deal with liturgical abuses, specifically did not address it although it dealt with many other issues including how the priest is to handle the sign of peace.
Even within the hierarchy there is great disagreement about the issue with some strongly against and others in favor, while others appear to just be neutral. Regardless, there is nothing of force from Rome that I have seen or heard of condemning it.
As such, since I see you to be a definite child of the Church, I think you would have to agree that we are not in a position to make proclamations for the Church that the Church itself has failed to make. I fully respect your opinion that it *should not * be allowed as I understand the reasoning against it. I also have great sympathy for those, including myself, who find it a very meaningful expression of our devotion to OUR Father.
In the end, we really just need to be charitable from both sides in not trying to force our preference on those around us and in not judging the piety or devotion of those who might express their devotion a little differently than what we might like.
Peace,
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Angels Watchin said:
I’m sorry, I misunderstood because that is the way the thread was going. I agree with you on the orans, but many Bishops read the official documents differently than you do. My job is to humbly obey my Bishop, not put myself above them. Unless you are living in the Vatican, you have a Bishop who is approved by Rome to lead you. I don’t like, I don’t do, nor do I agree with the laity doing the Orans position in the liturgy, but if my Bishop were to say that I must (as in Cleveland) I would. I would rather err on the side of humility and obedience.
I would have to see some documentation from Rome that backs you up on this one. I have never seen anything from Rome that tells you to disregard their rulings.
No Bishop can request that you hold hands and as far as I know, none has. There has been Bishops requesting Orans instead of holding hands. I detest both. BUT not a single Bishop will tell you and your family not to, it is just not to be encouraged in the liturgy.
Which Bishop stated that we should have Women Priests?
The Bishops are given the ability to rule on things that the Vatican has not. When the Vatican does not clearly state something, it IS the Bishop’s job to rule on it.
I agree with everything that you have stated about the Orans but the Vatican has not come out (as they did on liturgical dance) and stated “The Orans Position is for the Priest only in the Liturgy”. Until that time, I will humbly obey my Bishop.
So what is a Bishop to do when Rome is unclear about something?
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Just ask…
the nuncio or the sacred congregation in charge - bishops and councils of bishops do it all the time, except when they want to get away with something they know they’ll get “the wrong answer” on.
I’ll obey Rome when the bishop does not. We are called to know our faith!
A precise listing of what exactly the bishop DOES have authority on (within the mass) is listed on the USCCB website under the GIRM - you really should take a look.
Blessings,
Angel
What do you do when something is unclear to you?
Just ask…
the nuncio or the sacred congregation in charge - bishops and councils of bishops do it all the time, except when they want to get away with something they know they’ll get “the wrong answer” on.
I’ll obey Rome when the bishop does not. We are called to know our faith!
A precise listing of what exactly the bishop DOES have authority on (within the mass) is listed on the USCCB website under the GIRM - you really should take a look.
Blessings,
Angel
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Angel
I said “Just as if…” it was an example.
Angel
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Nothing more, nothing less is REQUIRED and nothing else may be REQUIRED OF YOU.
Thanks,
Angel
And the Vatican has ruled on the Mass - It is in the GIRM. Whatever is says you are to do, you are to do. Whatever it says the bishop may decide, then, on that, AND ON THAT ONLY, he may decide.
Nothing more, nothing less is REQUIRED and nothing else may be REQUIRED OF YOU.
Thanks,
Angel
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netmilsmom
Guest
Angels Watchin:
I have. In fact, I have a family member who has an insider’s take on it. A Bishop Emeritus. Are you in higher rank than him?
You are a sheep in the flock. Unless you are a Cardinal in the Vatican or a Bishop anywhere. You may want to believe that You have the authority say what a Bishop should and should not do, but you do not.
Again…
I have. In fact, I have a family member who has an insider’s take on it. A Bishop Emeritus. Are you in higher rank than him?
You are a sheep in the flock. Unless you are a Cardinal in the Vatican or a Bishop anywhere. You may want to believe that You have the authority say what a Bishop should and should not do, but you do not.
Again…
I have not seen you post this documentation. Until then, my friend, I’m not sure that a single person here will tell you to disobey an order from your Bishop. It’s pretty bold of you to state that you do not trust the decisions of the Pope who put Bishops at the head of your Diocese to guide you. If he had a problem, he would move on it.
G
gusano
Guest
We worship like Priests because we are sharers in THE ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
(1 Peter 2: 5, 9)
It is evident from the writings of St. Paul that it was encouraged as early as 30 years ± after Christ’s ascension.;
1 Tim. 2: 8
"It is my wish, then, that in every place the men shall offer prayers with blameless hands held aloft,
and be free from anger and dissension."
Even before the time of Christ, it was a common form of Prayer and Worship among the Jews, as seen in
Psalm 24: 4…"He whose hands are sinless, whose heart is clean,
nor who swears deceitfully to his neighbor."
Psalm 28: 2… "Hear the sound of my pleading , when I cry to you, lifting up my hands toward The Holy of Holies."
Psalm 134: 2… "Lift up your hands toward the sanctuary, and bless the Lord."
Proverbs 6: 10… "A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the arms to rest—
Then poverty shall come upon you like a highway man, and want like an armed man."
Heb. 12: 12… "So strengthen your drooping hands and your week knees…"
Among the Charismatics it is often said;
"If the Spirit of God truly lives in your heart…
please notify your hands and face !"
I can’t understand why anyone would AVOID…living filled with The Holy Spirit…
since He sets us free to WORSHIP THE LIVING GOD… and enjoy being a son of God.
And Make Catholicism Absolutely Beautiful.
gusano
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gusano
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
No, twice !
Once when I saw a painting of Christ crucified,
The other when I saw a sculpture of Christ crucufied.
I wonder if most of the posts here are
“people trying to please people”…
or are they about Worship ?
gusano
I saw the hands up once,
No, twice !
Once when I saw a painting of Christ crucified,
The other when I saw a sculpture of Christ crucufied.
I wonder if most of the posts here are
“people trying to please people”…
or are they about Worship ?
gusano
H
HagiaSophia
Guest
Why is it usually necessary for you to infer or imply that those who differ with you in practice are somehow less “holy” or or"prayerful"?
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gusano
Guest
I seriously doubt that anyone here is less"holy or prayerful" than I…
It could be because maybe I envy those who are.
It could be that The Church does not belong to those who “worship with their hands up”…
anymore than it belongs to those who “worship with their hands in their pockets.”
It could be that they are not far from the kingdom of God and all they need is a little goading.
It could be that I love and am searching for Truth.
I don’t know, It seems necessary to me…
Maybe you have a better insight.
I’m open
It seems strange that a name like “HagiaSophia” would feel implied less …than a little ol’ “gusano”.
I am not here to offend
but to edify.
gusano
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palmas85
Guest
My hermanito Gusano or as I prefer to address him, worm, honestly believes this. As far as he is concerned the only true Catholics are Charismatics and thats it. I’ve had a long series of discussions both on this board and in private messages. When he starts to feel cornered he pulls up more scripture, but he is sincere in his belief that charismatics are the only true face of the Church. Of course in his eyes I am a Pharisee and I believe he called me uncircumsized of heart and ears on one occasion, so maybe I’m wrong.
He does have his heart in the right place, verdad mi hermanito?
At least I hope so.
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Adonia
Guest
Rebecca New:
Eucharistic Adoration is something completely different! There I would be focousing on Our Lord, in a meditation by myself. Praying together at Mass, together with everyone else is quite a different matter. Following your logic, even saying community prayer would be forbidden! I’m sorry, I just don’t see the down side to this. While I agree that Cathoilc teaching is of primary importance in how we worship God, the list of the rules and regulations are so long it would be almost impossible not to misstep. I remember the Latin Rites we used to live by, and the way we worship today is a whole lot different. You know, I’d like to see the Pope address issue, and if He would ok it, would that settle the matter for you?
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netmilsmom
Guest
Sorry, but I think of myself less worthy than Christ.
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gusano
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
But more worthy than Benny Hinn ?
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netmilsmom
Guest
If Benny Hinn were Catholic and acted the way he does, absolutely.But more worthy than Benny Hinn ?
He is a Protestant and acts accordingly. Our beloved Pope has no problem with Protestants acting like Protestants and neither do I.
When Catholics act like him, Hmmmmmm.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Can you show me anywhere that it says palms up?We worship like Priests because we are sharers in THE ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
(1 Peter 2: 5, 9)
It is evident from the writings of St. Paul that it was encouraged as early as 30 years ± after Christ’s ascension.;
1 Tim. 2: 8
"It is my wish, then, that in every place the men shall offer prayers with blameless hands held aloft,
and be free from anger and dissension."
Even before the time of Christ, it was a common form of Prayer and Worship among the Jews, as seen in
Psalm 24: 4…"He whose hands are sinless, whose heart is clean,
nor who swears deceitfully to his neighbor."
Psalm 28: 2… "Hear the sound of my pleading , when I cry to you, lifting up my hands toward The Holy of Holies."
Psalm 134: 2… "Lift up your hands toward the sanctuary, and bless the Lord."
Proverbs 6: 10… "A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the arms to rest—
Then poverty shall come upon you like a highway man, and want like an armed man."
Heb. 12: 12… "So strengthen your drooping hands and your week knees…"
Among the Charismatics it is often said;
"If the Spirit of God truly lives in your heart…
please notify your hands and face !"
I can’t understand why anyone would AVOID…living filled with The Holy Spirit…
since He sets us free to WORSHIP THE LIVING GOD… and enjoy being a son of God.
And Make Catholicism Absolutely Beautiful.
gusano
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