Language of the Divine Liturgy

[dzheremi]

The most obvious example I can think of to counter ConstantineTG’s assertion (which may be correct if he limits it to specific territories, e.g. Eastern Europe) would be that of the Syriac Christians in India. The linguistic situation in India is something I have limited familiarity with (probably not as much as a linguist should ), but as far as I know no form of Syriac or its antecedents or daughters (“Assyrian Neo-Aramaic”) has ever been natively spoken by the Christians of India. In Kerala, the official language is Malayalam (one of the Dravidian languages), and elsewhere in India where there are large concentrations of Christians, it is something else (for instance, in Goa it is Konkani and Marathi). In all cases, the use of Syriac in the liturgy cannot be considered a modern practice, and neither does it mean that it is necessarily not understood (see, for instance, the liner notes for PAN Records’ anthology of Syriac Christian recordings from India “Qambel Maran”, which talks about the role of local monasteries in educating the people on the Syriac traditions of their church). Anyone who has ever been to a Divine Liturgy or Mass in a language other than their native language has quickly learned the difference between understanding the meaning of the prayers and the responses and understanding the word-for-word translations of the same.

 

[malphono]

May not be all vernacular all the time here in the diaspora, would be in the home countries. Church Slavonic in Russia, Greek in Greece etc.

Since when is Koine the vernacular in Greece or OCS the vernacular in Russia? And when we move to the Orient, it becomes even more complicated. No matter, though: it’s not necessarily all-vernacular-all-the-time, diaspora or otherwise. As I said earlier, we all know that there are very strong and valid arguments for preserving the liturgical languages in the East and Orient, at least in part.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think there is a parallel between the use of Church Slavonic in the Byzantine Rite and Latin in the Roman Catholic Church. Slavonic was widely used when it was not the language of the people. I have even spoken with older people who remembered it and were very disappointed when it was discontinued.
There seems to be two divergent opinions on the language of the Divine Liturgy in America. The very vocal mostly convert group, that believes it has to be in English, or the Eastern Churches will soon die out, and an another group (not sure what to call them) who believe the ethnic tradition and the church are inseperable.

 

[dzheremi]

Has OCS really been discontinued in the DL? In which provinces and to what extent? I ask because hat has not been the case in my (limited) experience. If my experience has been an anomaly, that is distressing.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Depends what you mean by traditional. The Ukrainians traditionally use Old Slavonic. I don’t know in the Ukraine but in North America they use the more modern vernacular Ukrainian and of course English.

The Divine Liturgy has been translated to whatever language is understood by the local populace regardless of the Patrimony of the Church that celebrated the Liturgy. Since each sui juris Church usually is concentrated on a particular ethnicity, the language of the members of the Church and the Church itself is the same most of the time.

Like using the vernacular is not such a bad thing? I’ve been saying that for a long time

Correct, use of the vernacular is not a bad thing nor is preserving the “Tradional” ethnical Lanuage of that Rite. That both can and maybe should be used along side one another as it appears happens here in the US anyway in the Eastern Churches.

 

[ProVobis]

Spoken like a true Roman Catholic no respect for traditions other then your own! I want my Latin!!!

Yeah…imagine people praying in a language they actually understand!

Wasn’t that a John Lennon song?

Call me what you want, but I’m surprised that EC wouldn’t want to hold fast to their traditional languages. I mean, either you want your traditions or you don’t.

I’m sorry but if one has to have everything without a little effort on his part, that’s not saying much for his spirituality.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Wasn’t that a John Lennon song?

Call me what you want, but I’m surprised that EC wouldn’t want to hold fast to their traditional languages. I mean, either you want your traditions or you don’t.

I’m sorry but if one has to have everything without a little effort on his part, that’s not saying much for his spirituality.

We are holding to tradition, the tradition of the use of the vernacular. I am surprised that you would ask us not to hold to our tradtions.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

In some of my recent readings in Byzantine Chant I came across some information about the use of the vernacular Romanian in the Romanian Orthodox (and by extension the Romanian Greek Catholic) Church. Apparently not only is the vernacular Romanian used, but regular liturgical commissions are held in order to keep the translation “up-to-date” with what is being spoken. All the while this is done in such a way as to not only be faithful to the meaning original Greek texts from which we receive our Divine Liturgy, but also to be faithful to the original Byzantine melodies and meter of Byzantine Chant.

This is not to say, however, that the Romanians do not also use Greek in their Divine Liturgies. Having never been to Romania I can’t say whether or not they do in the motherland. I have heard Romanian Chant CDs, however, in which a certain amount of Greek is maintained, mostly for common repetitive hymns such as the Trisagion, the Cherubicon, the Kyrie, etc., much the same way Latin is maintained in the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, etc. in many Roman parishes.

As has been noted by others, but perhaps not said explicitly, the amount of English used at Divine Liturgies (at least of the Byzantine tradition) in the U.S. varies from parish to parish. At my own parish we use predominantly English, but have healthy dosages of Greek and Arabic thrown in. At the local Ruthenian parish they use predominantly English, but also a generous amount of Church Slavonic. At the local Ukrainian National Shrine I believe they use modern Ukrainian almost exclusively, perhaps supplemented by some Church Slavonic and some English.

From what I understand, however, it is much more difficult to find English liturgies among the non-Byzantine Churches in this country, excepting the Maronites of course.

 

[ProVobis]

From what I have heard and experienced, Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgies use a combination of Greek and English. ** I’ve never attended a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy that was entirely in English. ** I’ve been to a few Antiochian Orthodox Divine Liturgies. If I recall correctly (it’s been a few years), it was predominantly English with some Arabic. The OCA Divine Liturgies I’ve attended were entirely in English, but I believe some OCA parished combine English and Church Slavonic. The Ruthenian Catholics tend to use English exclusively. The Melkites, from what I’ve been told, combine Arabic and English. I believe the Ukrainian Catholics use a combination of Ukrainian and Church Slavonic, or a combination of English, Ukrainiand, and Church Slavonic. Of course, there are numerous other Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic groups in the USA, but I know too little about them to comment.

Thank you. It’s good to know that.

 

[malphono]

We are holding to tradition, the tradition of the use of the vernacular. I am surprised that you would ask us not to hold to our tradtions.

And again, we all know that it’s not all-vernacular-all-the-time, diaspora or “homeland” notwithstanding.

 

[malphono]

From what I understand, however, it is much more difficult to find English liturgies among the non-Byzantine Churches in this country, excepting the Maronites of course.

Of course. It’s also nearly impossible to find ad orientem there either. Ah yes, the joys of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization.

 

[dzheremi]

From what I understand, however, it is much more difficult to find English liturgies among the non-Byzantine Churches in this country, excepting the Maronites of course.

This is true, Phillip, though I have heard some very beautiful Coptic chants in English produced in America, such as in the video linked in my signature or in videos like this one. St. Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Church in Washington D.C. has produced a series of CDs featuring Kiakh praises and others in English, Coptic, and Arabic, and there is now “Metonia: Hymns and Praises of the Holy Great Fast” CD chanted apparently entirely in English (the first such CD to be released in the West?). I don’t have it, but it is available here.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

This is true, Phillip, though I have heard some very beautiful Coptic chants in English produced in America, such as in the video linked in my signature or in videos like this one. St. Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Church in Washington D.C. has produced a series of CDs featuring Kiakh praises and others in English, Coptic, and Arabic, and there is now “Metonia: Hymns and Praises of the Holy Great Fast” CD chanted apparently entirely in English (the first such CD to be released in the West?). I don’t have it, but it is available here.

Ah yes. How could I forget the Coptics. I’ve actually been to St. Mark’s for Vespers before. If I was distinguishing the languages correctly they primarily used English, but also threw in plenty of Arabic, Greek and Coptic. 'Twas a wonderful Vespers service. I would love to go back some time soon, but my wife isn’t really interested. I’ll have to check out those CDs at some point. I have heard a good deal of Coptic hymnody in English and do believe that it is quite lovely in all the languages that I’ve heard it.

 

[ciero]

Wasn’t that a John Lennon song?

Call me what you want, but I’m surprised that EC wouldn’t want to hold fast to their traditional languages. I mean, either you want your traditions or you don’t.

I’m sorry but if one has to have everything without a little effort on his part, that’s not saying much for his spirituality.

Yes we want to keep our traditions and it has always been our tradition to pray in the vernacular. That’s why they’re no longer using Greek in Russia.

 

[ciero]

And again, we all know that it’s not all-vernacular-all-the-time, diaspora or “homeland” notwithstanding.

Maybe things are different in the Oriental churches, but in the Byzantine world (and I have traveled extensively therein) the vernacular is used exclusively in these places. Greek in Greece, Church Slavonic in Russia, Arabic throughout the Middle East, the only exception I have come across is Romania…Romanian is used for the most part, in the south Greek is sometimes used and in the north Slavonic is sometimes used. In the monasteries of Romania they use Greek (Byzantine) music but sing in modern Romanian.

Please see my earlier post in reference to Koine Greek and Old Church Slavonic.

I have never heard anything but Greek used in Greece and church Slavonic used in Russia.

 

[malphono]

Maybe things are different in the Oriental churches, but in the Byzantine world (and I have traveled extensively therein) the vernacular is used exclusively in these places. Greek in Greece, Church Slavonic in Russia, Arabic throughout the Middle East, the only exception I have come across is Romania…Romanian is used for the most part, in the south Greek is sometimes used and in the north Slavonic is sometimes used. In the monasteries of Romania they use Greek (Byzantine) music but sing in modern Romanian.

Please see my earlier post in reference to Koine Greek and Old Church Slavonic.

I have never heard anything but Greek used in Greece and church Slavonic used in Russia.

Even the Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox hold to a certain amount of Greek.

And yes, BTW, I did see your earlier disclaimer. But, the fact was, is, and will always be, that Koine is not modern Greek. Nor is OCS modern Russian. In other words, disclaimers notwithstanding, neither is vernacular. It’s all quite like the people who insist that the Glagolitic Missal (the Roman Mass in OCS) that was used in parts of Dalmatia was so-called “vernacular.”

Well, whatever. Makes no never-mind to me.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think there is a parallel between the use of Church Slavonic in the Byzantine Rite and Latin in the Roman Catholic Church. Slavonic was widely used when it was not the language of the people. I have even spoken with older people who remembered it and were very disappointed when it was discontinued.

There seems to be two divergent opinions on the language of the Divine Liturgy in America. The very vocal mostly convert group, that believes it has to be in English, or the Eastern Churches will soon die out, and an another group (not sure what to call them) who believe the ethnic tradition and the church are inseperable.

The issue you are missing here is the traditional language is tied down to the ethnicity of the Church. Compare this to Roman Catholicism which has expanded beyond its ethnic borders. A Japanese or Chinese Roman Catholic would have no ethnic ties to Latin. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc. have ethnic ties to Slavonic as they are ethnically Slavic. Their modern day languages and dialects evolved from the original language, much like the Romance languages evolved from Latin.

 

[Aramis]

I had a thougt come to me this mornig. With the Eastern Churches being predominatly cultural and ethinic based, they have spread to say like America is th liturgy of say a Greek Church in America still in Greek or is it in English?

Being a Latin Catholic and all the contrversy over the Mass being in the vanaculare or in latin I was wondering how this is and has been handled in the Eastern Churches. If this has been talked about before a link to that thread would be ok. Thank you

You’ll find Ruthenian parishes using English, Spanish, Slavonic, and one or two other Slavic languages.

You’ll find Ukrainian parishes using English, Ukrainian, Slavonic, and possibly others.

Some will use a mixture in a single liturgy.

Some still use occasional responses in a traditional language. (For the Russian, Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, that traditional language is Church Slavonic.)

For example, on Easter, the call-response:
Celebrant: Christ is Risen!
All: Indeed He is Risen!
C: Christos Voskrese!
A: Voistinu Voskrese!
C: Christ is Risen!
A: Indeed He is Risen!

Some parishes will retain this even if they have abandoned almost all use of Slavonic.

Likewise, some parishes integrate other languages into repeated prayers.

For example, during the hours, there’s a block of 40 “Lord Have Mercy!” prayers.
We use:
10x Hospodi Pomiluij
10x Kyrie Eleison!
10x Señor ten piedad!
10x Lord have mercy!

We used to alternate English and Slavonic on the Cherubic Hymn and the May our mouths… doing the overall 3+ times, with at least two in English, but Rev. Fr. Wes felt we were mangling it too much, so ordered it into English alone.

 

[Seamus_L]

Constantine
I meant to say that it has a parallel in most but not all Byzantine Churches. Obviously you wouldn't have it in a Melkite Church. Still, I don't see how the use of Church Slavonic would not be traditional.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine

                                          I meant to say that it has a parallel in most but not all Byzantine Churches. Obviously you wouldn't have it in a Melkite Church. Still, I don't see how the use of Church Slavonic would not be traditional.

Slavonic is traditional of the Church, not of the Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was originally in Greek. An Old Slavonic Divine Liturgy would already be a translation.