Language of the Divine Liturgy

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I had a thougt come to me this mornig. With the Eastern Churches being predominatly cultural and ethinic based, they have spread to say like America is th liturgy of say a Greek Church in America still in Greek or is it in English?

Being a Latin Catholic and all the contrversy over the Mass being in the vanaculare or in latin I was wondering how this is and has been handled in the Eastern Churches. If this has been talked about before a link to that thread would be ok. Thank you

 

[ciero]

I had a thougt come to me this mornig. With the Eastern Churches being predominatly cultural and ethinic based, they have spread to say like America is th liturgy of say a Greek Church in America still in Greek or is it in English?

Being a Latin Catholic and all the contrversy over the Mass being in the vanaculare or in latin I was wondering how this is and has been handled in the Eastern Churches. If this has been talked about before a link to that thread would be ok. Thank you

The liturgy in most Eastern traditions is in the vernacular ( at least a language close enough to the modern form of said language that the people can understand ) always has been.

 

[Paul_Kemp_Jr]

The liturgy in most Eastern traditions is in the vernacular ( at least a language close enough to the modern form of said language that the people can understand ) always has been.

Yeah, even in Orthodoxy this is usually the case, they celebrate the Divine Liturgy both in the vernacular (usually a translation that has been very carefully constructed to stay true to the original language) and in their respective languages ie, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Lebanese etc. It is usually a cultural or personal preference and may be based on whether or not it is a week day, or Sunday, or a holy day of obligation.

 

[ProVobis]

The liturgy in most Eastern traditions is in the vernacular ( at least a language close enough to the modern form of said language that the people can understand ) always has been.

That’s hard for me to fathom. Languages and meanings of ordinary people change. That’s one of the problems of vernacular in the West, most notably English, a language spoken by so many non-Catholic and non-religious people. Worship languages, such as Latin, Greek, Syriac, etc. which have been time-proven to spread Catholicism, should be retainined in my opinion, regardless of their popularity or lack thereof.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thank you. So if I go to the Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox I could expect to hear it in either English or Greek depending on that particulare Parish, correct?

 

[ciero]

Yeah, even in Orthodoxy this is usually the case, they celebrate the Divine Liturgy both in the vernacular (usually a translation that has been very carefully constructed to stay true to the original language) and in their respective languages ie, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Lebanese etc. It is usually a cultural or personal preference and may be based on whether or not it is a week day, or Sunday, or a holy day of obligation.

What I was trying to say was the vernacular is the norm although that may mean an antiquated form of the language.

Greek is in Koine Greek, about 80% understandable by a modern Greek speaker.
Church Slavonic and not modern Russian.
Ukranian is controversial some will use modern Ukranian, some Church Slavonic.
There is no such language as Lebanese…Arabic would be the norm in Lebanon and the middle east.
Here in the US English is used, although most Orthodox use a more King James type of English.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What I was trying to say was the vernacular is the norm although that may mean an antiquated form of the language.

Greek is in Koine Greek, about 80% understandable by a modern Greek speaker.
Church Slavonic and not modern Russian.
Ukranian is controversial some will use modern Ukranian, some Church Slavonic.
There is no such language as Lebanese…Arabic would be the norm in Lebanon and the middle east.
Here in the US English is used, although most Orthodox use a more King James type of English.

Thank you. taht is what I was try to find out. Here in the U.S. what language would be used say in a Greek Chrurch would it be Greek or English.
So it would be in English correct?

 

[ciero]

That’s hard for me to fathom. Languages and meanings of ordinary people change. That’s one of the problems of vernacular in the West, most notably English, a language spoken by so many non-Catholic and non-religious people. Worship languages, such as Latin, Greek, Syriac, etc. which have been time-proven to spread Catholicism, should be retainined in my opinion, regardless of their popularity or lack thereof.

Spoken like a true Roman Catholic no respect for traditions other then your own! I want my Latin!!!

Yeah…imagine people praying in a language they actually understand!

 

[ciero]

Thank you. taht is what I was try to find out. Here in the U.S. what language would be used say in a Greek Chrurch would it be Greek or English.
So it would be in English correct?

Most Greek churches in the US would use a combination of Greek and English. Same with most other ethnic churches a combination of English and the language of the particular ethnic language.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Spoken like a true Roman Catholic no respect for traditions other then your own! I want my Latin!!!

I don’t think that what he was saying. I think he was saying that moderan venaculars do not retain the same meanings as the, to use his words “worship languages” of Latin, Greek, Syriac, etc… Notice that he did include others not Latin only.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Most Greek churches in the US would use a combination of Greek and English. Same with most other ethnic churches a combination of English and the language of the particular ethnic language.

Thank you.

 

[RyanBlack]

From what I have heard and experienced, Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgies use a combination of Greek and English. I’ve never attended a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy that was entirely in English. I’ve been to a few Antiochian Orthodox Divine Liturgies. If I recall correctly (it’s been a few years), it was predominantly English with some Arabic. The OCA Divine Liturgies I’ve attended were entirely in English, but I believe some OCA parished combine English and Church Slavonic. The Ruthenian Catholics tend to use English exclusively. The Melkites, from what I’ve been told, combine Arabic and English. I believe the Ukrainian Catholics use a combination of Ukrainian and Church Slavonic, or a combination of English, Ukrainiand, and Church Slavonic. Of course, there are numerous other Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic groups in the USA, but I know too little about them to comment.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thank you all so much for your answers. From what is can see the Eastern Chruch are very much more practicule in that is seems here in the US they not only use Englich but hhave also retained the use of the traditional Language of their Liturgy.

Hummm, Maybe Just Maybe we Latins need to really look at our Eastern Brothers and Learn a thing or 12.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thank you. So if I go to the Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox I could expect to hear it in either English or Greek depending on that particulare Parish, correct?

It depends on the parish. If their parishioners are mostly recent immigrants, it will be in their native tongue. Otherwise it could be in English. The Ukrainian parish I go to has both English and Ukrainian.

 

[ciero]

Thank you all so much for your answers. From what is can see the Eastern Chruch are very much more practicule in that is seems here in the US they not only use Englich but hhave also retained the use of the traditional Language of their Liturgy.

Hummm, Maybe Just Maybe we Latins need to really look at our Eastern Brothers and Learn a thing or 12.

The reasons for retaining the traditional languages are a bit different from East to West. Traditional Latins who push for Latin in the Liturgy would hardly look to the East for backing as the East uses the vernacular. The reason for retaining another language here in the US is more of a cultural tie to the homeland, and to
Allow recent immigrants to pray in their own language. Not because we see anything special about a certain Liturgical language. Quite different from things in the West.

In fact durring Vatican II Rome looked to the East to promote use of the vernacular. Melkite Patriarch Maximos V, spoke out in favor the Latin church using more of the vernacular in their Liturgy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thank you all so much for your answers. From what is can see the Eastern Chruch are very much more practicule in that is seems here in the US they not only use Englich but hhave also retained the use of the traditional Language of their Liturgy.

Depends what you mean by traditional. The Ukrainians traditionally use Old Slavonic. I don’t know in the Ukraine but in North America they use the more modern vernacular Ukrainian and of course English.

The Divine Liturgy has been translated to whatever language is understood by the local populace regardless of the Patrimony of the Church that celebrated the Liturgy. Since each sui juris Church usually is concentrated on a particular ethnicity, the language of the members of the Church and the Church itself is the same most of the time.

Hummm, Maybe Just Maybe we Latins need to really look at our Eastern Brothers and Learn a thing or 12.

Like using the vernacular is not such a bad thing? I’ve been saying that for a long time

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s hard for me to fathom. Languages and meanings of ordinary people change. That’s one of the problems of vernacular in the West, most notably English, a language spoken by so many non-Catholic and non-religious people. Worship languages, such as Latin, Greek, Syriac, etc. which have been time-proven to spread Catholicism, should be retainined in my opinion, regardless of their popularity or lack thereof.

The concept of holding on to a language not understood by the local populace is actually modern in comparison to using the vernacular. The reason each sui juris Church is using the vernacular because they are set up that way in the beginning. The traditional boundaries of each sui juris Church is the boundary of each culture or kingdom, so they are one culture, one language. That includes originally the Roman Church.

 

[malphono]

Spoken like a true Roman Catholic no respect for traditions other then your own! I want my Latin!!!

Yeah…imagine people praying in a language they actually understand!

Seems to me that reaction was a bit over-the-top.

Please … let’s not minimize the fact that there are those in the East and Orient who themselves actually prefer to hold to the use of traditional liturgical languages, at least in part. The arguments for the preservation of liturgical language in the East and Orient may differ from those in the Latin Church, but they exist nonetheless.

 

[malphono]

The concept of holding on to a language not understood by the local populace is actually modern in comparison to using the vernacular. The reason each sui juris Church is using the vernacular because they are set up that way in the beginning. The traditional boundaries of each sui juris Church is the boundary of each culture or kingdom, so they are one culture, one language. That includes originally the Roman Church.

Not exactly, but I have neither the patience nor the interest to give lessons on this point.

In any case, all I will say here is that we all know that in the East in Orient it is not all-vernacular-all-the time.

 

[ciero]

Not exactly, but I have neither the patience nor the interest to give lessons on this point.

In any case, all I will say here is that we all know that in the East in Orient it is not all-vernacular-all-the time.

May not be all vernacular all the time here in the diaspora, would be in the home countries. Church Slavonic in Russia, Greek in Greece etc.