Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[Rich_Olszewski]

Having been Atheist, Taoist/Buddhist-leaning Agnostic, born-again fundamentalist Bible Christian and Presbyterian…I understand that where someone is today (e.g. hateful, ex-Catholic trying to rip others away from His Church) is not necessarily where they will end up.

Praying.

As a born and bred Catholic, I hear you, but can’t relate to your experiences.

 

[LovesOwn]

You can do all those acts as a Catholic.

But you lose the arrogance when you’re not catholic

Do we know that, and if so, so what? He is God.
He led by example

That’s just what the Church says.
Not exactly… You need to confess to a man, your sins are known by God even before you know you have sinned, He cannot wait for you to make confession, He punishes you in real time.

Please explain.

• Mary lost her son, and her son seemed angry, saying, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
• Mary pushes him to perform a miracle at the wedding; again he reacts with distain “It is not my time. I provide joy that comes with the death of Messiah on the cross.”
• At the cross he gives John to her to take care of her, he doesn’t say to her, these are your children; the Gospel of John clearly states that John took her into his home, so he could take care of her. John 19:27 – So Jesus does not ordain her as mother of all His Creation. He simply offers his support for her yet again.
I would like to further point out to you the horribleness of the so called miraculous apparitions that are wrongfully portrayed in your religion. I believe that Asherah has appeared several times, and in her doing so, her apparitions stand out from other so called Marion apparitions. Our Lady of Guadeloupe simply appears, shows a miracle, announces a place of worship to be built and disappears. The apparition of the miraculous medal is much the same, the person appearing does not title herself endlessly, she purely states what needs to be done for her goal to be achieved. If you read the story of the medal, you will find that Saint Catherine Labouré was drilled relentlessly after the fact (there’s hidden stuff there). If you look at it in the perspective that the Saint may have been aware that this was Asherah, she was ordered to keep quiet. Dan Brown has lots to learn. Then we look at these elaborate apparitions of Mary, most around caves. How odd! Fatima - Children are asked to give over their bodies to the person appearing. “Do you want to offer yourselves to God to endure all the sufferings that He may choose to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended and as a supplication for the conversion of sinners?” Promptly Lucia responded for all three, “Yes, we want to.” “Then you are going to suffer a great deal,” the Lady promised. They behave as though possessed. Little Jacinta is endlessly tortured, her body filled with puss-filled sores. She dies, like her cousin, a horrid death. They had cords around their waists; they did “penance”, endlessly. What mother treats her children like this? But the secrets, they have to be the best! And the little light shows too? My problem with this is that it all happens in a place called Fatima, a place named after Mohamed’s favourite daughter. The statue of Fatima is dressed like a moslem women… The children were vulnerable and something really cynical pounced on that vulnerability.

“Kiss the ground for sinners,” Our Lady said. Bending low, Bernadette did so. She knelt at the foot of the grotto, sloping into the river, and then made her way up, on her knees, kissing the ground as she went. The people followed her example in kissing the ground, and as she motioned to the crowd many of them followed her up the slope on their knees, kissing the ground for sinners as they went. This happened subsequently many times.”

In Islam, I am often struck by the disrespect shown to the heavens and the kissing of hell itself. In Islam I am struck about how things took place in a cave. I interpret it as kissing hell, kissing the ground for sinners, praising the sinners!!! I really shirk the kissing of the ground when it’s heaven that should be venerated.

There is more.
“This is probably due, at least in part, to the character of Bruno Cornacchiola; it seems that he went on to claim a total of 28 further apparitions by 1986, with messages which became increasingly apocalyptic in tone, including predictions of various evils which have not materialized. It also seems that he has not been completely truthful in his biography. This is like the tragic history of Mélanie at La Salette; her initial experience was trustworthy, but she allowed events to go to her head in later years.”
Bruno received his message in a cave.

Then there’s the most horrid our lady of all nations and things like Garabundal. If that can happen, then you have to, if you have the smallest inclination towards an enquiring mind, you have to investigate the others.

What is the meaning of this? If the devil knows anything about heaven, having been an angel once himself, he would know that Mary is not queen of heaven. Thus, he saw it as an opportunity to break Christ’s religion, and make it about a person, who it is obvious, didn’t support Jesus very much during his time on earth. Worship of Mary has abated, I admit, and I believe strongly that God will not allow souls to be overrun to the extent of been led into hell by their noses, because a beautiful lady beckons them. Constantine did what he could to make this religion into an acceptable “dogma”. Making it more about his beliefs rather than that of what the first Catholics may have believed. It was continuous persecution or an established and prosperous church. It is what the Spanish inquisition is about. Having uncovered that the Templar were turning towards this Goddess Asherah (Venus, Aphrodite), of which they had no doubt rediscovered during their travels, they were annihilated by the church

 

[LovesOwn]

Which dogma?
The one you believe in!

Told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. 'Cause it was a sin.
I never said adultery wasn’t a sin:shrug:

Where did you learn this? Was it through “me an’ ma bible an’ Jayzus?” You are so ignorant on this point that it’s not worth responding on point.

I prayed the 15 prayers of Saint Bridgette for a year, at the end of the year, I had an apparition… True story

Yes, religion doesn’t solve sinfulness. YOU solve your sinfulness by repenting, going to confession, showing sorrow for your sins, and being absolved of your sins by the priest.

If you’re catholic yes…

We’ve found Him. Why don’t you try to?
He revealed Himself to me, 20 years ago… I felt the torn skin on my right leg, the inability to breathe because of His broken nose and swollen tongue, I felt how His shoulder bone stuck out from His flesh, I felt His tears sting my flesh, my hands were on fire with pain, I could not lift my feet. He shared His pain with me. I love Him with every bit of what I am. But He is not in your church the way you think He is.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich Olszewski;9225986:

You can do all those acts as a Catholic.

But you lose the arrogance when you’re not catholic

What does that mean?

Do we know that, and if so, so what? He is God.
He led by example

So where in Scripture does it say that Jesus was an unfaithful Jew?

That’s just what the Church says.
Not exactly… You need to confess to a man, your sins are known by God even before you know you have sinned, He cannot wait for you to make confession, He punishes you in real time.

No, that’s nonsense. God doesn’t strike you dead in real time if you sin. You have the opportunity to go to confession and have God forgive you your sins through the agency of the priest. “Whose sins you shall forgive…”

• Mary lost her son, and her son seemed angry, saying, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
• Mary pushes him to perform a miracle at the wedding; again he reacts with distain “It is not my time. I provide joy that comes with the death of Messiah on the cross.”

\So what?

• At the cross he gives John to her to take care of her, he doesn’t say to her, these are your children; the Gospel of John clearly states that John took her into his home, so he could take care of her. John 19:27 – So Jesus does not ordain her as mother of all His Creation. He simply offers his support for her yet again.

Who said that she was the mother of all creation? Is that something you in your religion believe?

“Kiss the ground for sinners,” Our Lady said. Bending low, Bernadette did so. She knelt at the foot of the grotto, sloping into the river, and then made her way up, on her knees, kissing the ground as she went. The people followed her example in kissing the ground, and as she motioned to the crowd many of them followed her up the slope on their knees, kissing the ground for sinners as they went. This happened subsequently many times.”

There’s no trying to reply to your nonsense.

In Islam, I am often struck by the disrespect shown to the heavens and the kissing of hell itself. In Islam I am struck about how things took place in a cave. I interpret it as kissing hell, kissing the ground for sinners, praising the sinners!!! I really shirk the kissing of the ground when it’s heaven that should be venerated.

Who cares how you are struck except you yourself? Not I for sure.

There is more.
“This is probably due, at least in part, to the character of Bruno Cornacchiola; it seems that he went on to claim a total of 28 further apparitions by 1986, with messages which became increasingly apocalyptic in tone, including predictions of various evils which have not materialized. It also seems that he has not been completely truthful in his biography. This is like the tragic history of Mélanie at La Salette; her initial experience was trustworthy, but she allowed events to go to her head in later years.”
Bruno received his message in a cave.

Then there’s the most horrid our lady of all nations and things like Garabundal. If that can happen, then you have to, if you have the smallest inclination towards an enquiring mind, you have to investigate the others.

Tell you something. No Catholic is bound to believe ANY appartition. Understand that? The Church says that approved apparitions are “worthy of belief.” You can deny all of them if you like, and I know that you like.

What is the meaning of this? If the devil knows anything about heaven, having been an angel once himself, he would know that Mary is not queen of heaven. Thus, he saw it as an opportunity to break Christ’s religion, and make it about a person, who it is obvious, didn’t support Jesus very much during his time on earth. Worship of Mary has abated, I admit, and I believe strongly that God will not allow souls to be overrun to the extent of been led into hell by their noses, because a beautiful lady beckons them. Constantine did what he could to make this religion into an acceptable “dogma”. Making it more about his beliefs rather than that of what the first Catholics may have believed. It was continuous persecution or an established and prosperous church. It is what the Spanish inquisition is about. Having uncovered that the Templar were turning towards this Goddess Asherah (Venus, Aphrodite), of which they had no doubt rediscovered during their travels, they were annihilated by the church

So you deny Christianity? Tell you something. You are beyond trying to explain things to. Sometimes ignorance is an insurmountable barrier, and you’ve hit that wall IMO.

BTW, why do you post on this Forum? There’s not a Catholic over the age of four who would be misled by the stuff you post. Why don’t you try peddling your wares on one of the Protestant forums?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

He revealed Himself to me, 20 years ago… I felt the torn skin on my right leg, the inability to breathe because of His broken nose and swollen tongue, I felt how His shoulder bone stuck out from His flesh, I felt His tears sting my flesh, my hands were on fire with pain, I could not lift my feet. He shared His pain with me.

Ah, this explains it all.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Yes. I won’t respond to this guy any more, and will suggest to the moderators that they move his future posts to the Apologetics thread. It doesn’t really belong on World News.

 

[CMatt25]

I have noticed that some features work better on some computers than others, and that the board background is different colors. However, when I first had trouble with the multi-quote, I was clicking the orange box in the first post I wanted to quote, and then just clicking the quote button in the second post. It took me a while to figure out that I had to click the orange multi-quote button in *all *the posts I wanted to quote.

I am going to re-emphasize a point I was trying to make before, which is that *we do not know. *

It’s like if I decide to go to New York from DC. I have directions, which call for me to go along 95N for most of the trip. However, as I go, traffic comes to a Complete Standstill! So I get off 95 and try to drive along parallel and north so as to avoid the traffic.

This may or may not work. I do this sort of thing fairly frequently, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes I get lost and find that I have to retrace my steps back to 95, and sometimes I find that I have driven for miles and miles and ended up only one exit/entrance beyond where I was, and sometimes I get totally lost and am told that I have to return to where I started from.

And it seems that I always have to get back on 95 to enter NY, because otherwise I would be really lost and never get to my destination.

When it comes to salvation, Christ gave us a set of directions. Take 95N! He says. If we decide to get off 95, then we do not know if we will be able to reach our destination, whereas, if we stay on 95, because we trust God, then we will attain our destination, barring unforseen circumstances such as mortal sin (which would be like an accident in my analogy but way too imperfect to really fit in without a lot of explanation.)

What the Church is saying is that under certain circumstances, we know that people who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church *can *be saved. Moses and Elijah, for example, and those who follow God’s law written in their hearts but who have never heard of Christ or the Gospels.

But what the Church *knows *as the way to Heaven are the directions Christ gave, which are found only in the Catholic Church. So this is the only *assured *way the Church can teach.

The Church also knows that the sacraments are seriously helpful to attainiing Heaven.That would be like saying gasoline is necessary for your trip to NYC, and occasional fill-ups, right? And yet, the Good Thief never received the sacraments, so we know that someone *could *walk to NYC, but it would be much harder.

I was very confused when I first heard about the Baptism of Desire, If a person could be baptized by desire, then why did we need to be baptized? Because the BoD *occurs only at the moment of death. *And it only occurs if one *desires *it

at the moment of death. If one dies at a moment one does not desire it, then it won’t happen. The Good Thief proclaimed Christ as King at the time (but Christ could see what was in his heart and knew he would hold onto that until he died) of his death. Had he lived and gone off and forgotten about Christ being King, then that desire would have disapated and not been effective for a later death.

But the **main **point is that we do not know about all these *other *ways of attaining Heaven. And we certainly do not know about the final dispositions of particular individuals. So all that we can say of any particular individual is that it is possible that maybe he might could attain Heaven, but not whether he will or does.

**
What do you mean by “OK?”

I am saying that *each *person *can *be saved, in that Christ will judge us individually upon our deaths, and according to our dispositions at the time of death.

The route we *know *to salvation is the one Christ taught the Church, but God is not bound by the sacraments. Just as I know that the way to NYC from DC is to travel 95N, so the Church knows that the route to Heaven is by following Church teachings, among which are to receive the sacraments.

However, the person who *actually rejects *Christ’s Body the Church cannot be saved. The problem is that *we *humans here on earth cannot determine *with total certainty *who has *actually rejected *Christ’s Body–this is why the Church refrains from proclaiming that any particular person is in Hell, altho we know that “many” go there, and moreover, the Church refrains from telling us that we cannot pray for souls of those who have died apparently outside the Church.

It is very tricky. I would write a little more, but I am afraid I will run out of characters, and also I have some work to do! But I do think this is an important topic to discuss, so I’ll be back in a while–CUL8R!**

St Francis, thank you for your explanation as well as for the blue and red spectrum one. At first I was gathering from it that when the Church says someone who knew, could not be saved if they do not remain, that from your explanation they actually can get to the heavenly destination on their new path. Until you brought in the accident of mortal sin. Which brings it full circle. So basically it seems to me you’re saying the Church is saying if the person knew something was a mortal sin as Catholics define mortal sin that is, believed it to be so at one time, had a change in belief and committed a sin the Catholic Church believes is mortal, does not repent it, they are being judged unable to make the destination.

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis, thank you for your explanation as well as for the blue and red spectrum one. At first I was gathering from it that when the Church says someone who knew, could not be saved if they do not remain, that from your explanation they actually can get to the heavenly destination on their new path.

No… they would attain Heaven *despite *being on the wrong path. They would attain Heaven for what was in their hearts, which Christ would see.

And you have to understand that attaining Heaven in this way is less likely than attaining Heaven as an active Catholic (which is not definitive), who receives the knowledge and more importantly the graces of the sacraments from the Church. The person who is not “in” the Church is not receiving that help, but God will grant him or her sufficient grace to achieve salvation, probably by returning to the Church.

Until you brought in the accident of mortal sin. Which brings it full circle. So basically it seems to me you’re saying the Church is saying if the person knew something was a mortal sin as Catholics define mortal sin that is, believed it to be so at one time, had a change in belief and committed a sin the Catholic Church believes is mortal, does not repent it, they are being judged unable to make the destination.

It is not the Church who does the judging, it is Christ Himself, Who can see into our hearts. And the person who sins can at any time up until death repent the sin. (Of course, it is best to repent and confess the sin asap, so that one can make sufficient reparation to avoid Purgatory.)

Christ will judge us each justly at the particular judgement. All we know is that the person who dies in a personal state of mortal sin, with the person sin unmitigated by any circumstance, will not attain Heaven. And that includes the sin of leaving the Church, if the person’s guilt is unmitigated by any circumstance.

It is not a mortal sin “as Catholics define mortal sin,” it is mortal sin as *God *defines it. And if the sinner’s guilt is not mitigated by some aspect, then yes, he will be judged as having a mortal sin on his soul.

This is the thing: A Catholic whose faith becomes weak needs to do something other than to leave the Church. The Church has been around for 2000 years, and has dealt with this on many occasions. But a person has to want *Christ *more than he wants something else. It is very hard being Catholic, we have dark nights of the soul where we feel that God has abandoned us, we have to pray, which is really hard, and go to Confession, also difficult. It is not an easy path.

But we also have the sacraments to help us, and the writings of so many saints to sustain us, so it is not all bad. But we have to go through the bad with God as well as the good, we can’t be fair-weather friends.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Christ will judge us each justly at the particular judgement. All we know is that the person who dies in a personal state of mortal sin, with the person sin unmitigated by any circumstance, will not attain Heaven. And that includes the sin of leaving the Church, if the person’s guilt is unmitigated by any circumstance.

I question whether simply leaving the Church is a mortal sin or even a sin at all. Some simply drop away from the Church with no malice towards it, some leave for intellectual reasons, and those reasons would hardly seem to be sins.

 

[St_Francis]

I question whether simply leaving the Church is a mortal sin or even a sin at all. Some simply drop away from the Church with no malice towards it, some leave for intellectual reasons, and those reasons would hardly seem to be sins.

CMatt specified someone who really knows a lot about the Church but who stopped believing. I’m not saying, Yep, that guy is downward bound; only Christ can make that judgement. But it’s definitely an iffy situation.

Since missing Mass is a sin, one must assume that missing many Masses is several sins, no? The point is that you are supposed to make an effort to *go. *

Look at it this way: suppose a man just dropped away from his wife, no malice towards her, but just never showed back up–would she have a right to feel annoyed? Or even if he left for intellectual reasons?

Being Catholic means having a relationship with one’s Creator, and as one’s Creator, He deserves all one’s gratitude and love. One cannot absent oneself and still expect to have a relationship, can one?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I question whether simply leaving the Church is a mortal sin or even a sin at all. Some simply drop away from the Church with no malice towards it, some leave for intellectual reasons, and those reasons would hardly seem to be sins.

They would have to also meet the requirements for a mortal sin. First of all they would have to be fully free and would have to realize it as such. This would make it a very narrow window of people. There are a lot of people who are in such pain as they feel that God has abandoned them and leave for that reason…the depth of their pain would leave me to wonder if they are fully free.

 

[St_Francis]

They would have to also meet the requirements for a mortal sin. First of all they would have to be fully free and would have to realize it as such. This would make it a very narrow window of people. There are a lot of people who are in such pain as they feel that God has abandoned them and leave for that reason…the depth of their pain would leave me to wonder if they are fully free.

Exactly–*we *are limited in our knowledge of a particular person’s state of relationship with Christ; He will judge each one individually, with justice and mercy.

And this is also why we should pray and make sacrifices for others, because we don’t know the state of their souls.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

“The reasons that Catholics cite for missing Mass can be met and overcome by parishes that foster a welcoming environment for adolescents, young adults, singles, married
couples, parents, families, the sick or disabled, and anyone who is no longer active in the faith. The means for fostering a welcoming environment is the New Evangelization. The New Evangelization places a special emphasis on welcoming back to the Lord’s Table all those who are absent, because they are greatly missed and needed to build up the Body of Christ.”

USCCB Disciples Called to Witness

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/upload/Disciples-Called-To-Witness-The-New-Evangelization.pdf

 

[St_Francis]

“The reasons that Catholics cite for missing Mass can be met and overcome by parishes that foster a welcoming environment for adolescents, young adults, singles, married
couples, parents, families, the sick or disabled, and anyone who is no longer active in the faith. The means for fostering a welcoming environment is the New Evangelization. The New Evangelization places a special emphasis on welcoming back to the Lord’s Table all those who are absent, because they are greatly missed and needed to build up the Body of Christ.”

USCCB Disciples Called to Witness

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/upload/Disciples-Called-To-Witness-The-New-Evangelization.pdf

?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

?

What’s to question? The Bishops are focused on casting blame on those who left…but on welcoming them back…because they are missed and needed.

Too bad everyone can’t have that attitude…

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Since missing Mass is a sin, one must assume that missing many Masses is several sins, no? The point is that you are supposed to make an effort to *go. *

If you still believe that you must attend Mass. If you leave the Church, that no longer would have much meaning.

Look at it this way: suppose a man just dropped away from his wife, no malice towards her, but just never showed back up–would she have a right to feel annoyed? Or even if he left for intellectual reasons?

That’s because we all believe that contracting a marriage involves certain obligations. Suppose that one believes that there is no breach of contract in leaving one’s spouse?

Being Catholic means having a relationship with one’s Creator, and as one’s Creator, He deserves all one’s gratitude and love. One cannot absent oneself and still expect to have a relationship, can one?

Yes, but if one does not expect or intend to maintain such a relationship? When I started going out with the young woman who later became my wife, I absented myself from my other girlfriends. I no longer expected to have a love relationship with them.

 

[ProVobis]

I question whether simply leaving the Church is a mortal sin or even a sin at all. Some simply drop away from the Church with no malice towards it, some leave for intellectual reasons, and those reasons would hardly seem to be sins.

I have Polish-born parents. I don’t have a choice as to whether I want to leave the Church or not.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Although this thread is getting derailed, its nice to see that not everyone in this thread sees fit to dismiss those that leave the Church.

The real question is whether the concerns raised can be fixed or dealt with in a better way.

I would not dismiss those who leave the Church. I would merely point out that there is nothing out there. Without the Church, there is no salvation!

If someone hurt someone, it will take time to forgive; but forgive they must!!! No matter how a cleric of the Church has hurt anyone, the Church itself is not to blame. Those clerics are! Sometimes when we are emotionally involved with a situation, it is hard to make the right decisions. I believe that somehow, someone must point out to those hurt by members of our Church, that they are much better off within the Church.

We must also look to our shepherds to correct wrongs and defend the sheep. This means getting rid of wolves in sheep’s clothing and making sure all those ordained keep to the teachings of our wonderful Catholic Church. It is the One True Church and the Light in this dark world. Those who have infiltrated it with the intention of hurting the innocent must be winkled out and excommunicated!!! Such a breach of trust must be punished.

However, those victims must be encouraged to stay in our Church!

 

[St_Francis]

If you still believe that you must attend Mass. If you leave the Church, that no longer would have much meaning.

Remember the cartoons where a character would run off a cliff and keep on going *until he realized he was not over any ground? *That doesn’t happen in the real world. If you step off a cliff, you fall whether you believe you’re over the ground or not.

In the same way, missing Mass without a good reason is a mortal sin whether you believe it or not. Guilt for a mortal sin *might *be mitigated under certain circumstances, but we cannot be sure of that.

That’s because we all believe that contracting a marriage involves certain obligations. Suppose that one believes that there is no breach of contract in leaving one’s spouse?

Hmmm, suppose I thought that it was perfectly ok to steal from people whose last name was Smith? Suppose I convinnced everyone in town of that? Would either circumstance make it ok for me to steal from people named Smith?

[quoye]Yes, but if one does not expect or intend to maintain such a relationship? When I started going out with the young woman who later became my wife, I absented myself from my other girlfriends. I no longer expected to have a love relationship with them.
??? What, having a relationship with one’s Creator until a better one comes along? That makes sense?

 

[ProVobis]

I would not dismiss those who leave the Church. I would merely point out that there is nothing out there.

For an Anglophone, there are plenty of Lutheran, Anglican, Baptists, and other denominations. For an Italian or Pole, there’s not much.

Without the Church, there is no salvation!

Not that you should leave but that’s not what Vatican II said.