Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[CMatt25]

It really upsets me when these people act like the Catholic Church is the only one to have experienced sex-abuse scandals and to have not handled them well!! Other churches had cover ups too and even higher abuse rates!!

And if someone else’s scandals makes you leave the Church then your relationship was with man- not God.

The scandal matter may never be resolved on earth to the satisfaction of all. One side simply chalks it up to sin. Others nevertheless have concerns which can even bring into question for them fruits by which to know by. Yes others have had their scandals but it’s the Catholic Church which proclaims Herself Christ’s one and only true Church. People may question for instance when men preach the sanctity of life but then did not know better in these cases.

And the visible head of the Church on earth is a man. The bishops are all men who are believed to be the successors of the Apostles. Priests who are entrusted to shepherd their flocks are all men. So I’m not clear how you can be in the Church and as part of the practice of your faith, not have a relationship with man along with God.

 

[CMatt25]

What about people who were directly involved? I had a (well loved by the parish) priest try to rape me when I was younger. When I brought it up to archbishop, he blew me off, and said “I must have had it coming.” Then they “accidently” gave out my full name in the state Catholic newspaper. And the parishioners were not very nice to me. I was attacked by men who thought I was now “easy” and women would throw garbage at me. So I can’t even go by a Catholic Church without wanting to cry or be sick. So going to Mass is right out. The last time I tried to go to Mass I ended up crying for hours. And I’ve tried going back, but the memory of it always comes back. And I’ve been to therapy, but nothing will make the memory go away.

Later, I got a letter of apology from the archdiocese. The priest was finally caught after raping several woman over several years (I was the only woman who fought him off). Like an apology will restore my reputation. I thought priests were supposed to be representatives of Jesus on Earth. To say, “just suck it up and go to Mass” doesn’t work.

My heart truly goes out for you. And I pray God comforts you, consoles your memory, and brings as much peace to you as is possible on this earth. God bless you.

 

[CMatt25]

You are so right. I visited a Baptist service and a Church of Christ service some years ago, and I got the same reception you did - from each. They were genuinely welcoming. Not to say that there aren’t similar Catholic parishes, but they are FEW and FAR between.

I’ve heard about a reception like that at others. I’ve been to Catholic parishes when even during the sign of peace, I’ve extended my hand, and have been frowned upon or when others in the pew in front of me won’t even turn around. To be fair at the same Mass where I was frowned at, I had someone at the far end of the pew with no one sitting inbetween, look towards me and offer peace. But I nevertheless was pleasantly surprised when I attended a Mass recently at a parish I’d never been to before and when I turned around, someone from behind actually wearing shorts and a tee shirt was already approaching me with his hand extended. I left my seat and we met midway as we extended a handshake and greeting of peace to one another.

Peace.

 

[ellipsis2]

I’ve heard about a reception like that at others. I’ve been to Catholic parishes when even during the sign of peace, I’ve extended my hand, and have been frowned upon or when others in the pew in front of me won’t even turn around. To be fair at the same Mass where I was frowned at, I had someone at the far end of the pew with no one sitting inbetween, look towards me and offer peace. But I nevertheless was pleasantly surprised when I attended a Mass recently at a parish I’d never been to before and when I turned around, someone from behind actually wearing shorts and a tee shirt was already approaching me with his hand extended. I left my seat and we met midway as we extended a handshake and greeting of peace to one another.

Peace.

What! No cargo pants!

 

[CMatt25]

What! No cargo pants!

Well I didn’t say what I was wearing.

 

[Elizabeth502]

IBut I nevertheless was pleasantly surprised when I attended a Mass recently at a parish I’d never been to before and when I turned around, someone from behind actually wearing shorts and a tee shirt was already approaching me with his hand extended.

What does his clothing have to do with anything, positive or negative? Would you have been unpleasantly surprised if a man wearing pants and a buttoned shirt approached you and extended his hand? How abou a man in a suit or a woman in a dress, pantsuit, or skirt? Would that be an unpleasant surprise, too?

What’s your point?

 

[CMatt25]

What does his clothing have to do with anything, positive or negative? Would you have been unpleasantly surprised if a man wearing pants and a buttoned shirt approached you and extended his hand? How abou a man in a suit or a woman in a dress, pantsuit, or skirt? Would that be an unpleasant surprise, too?

What’s your point?

That’s easy. My point is I only know from past experience that a number of faithful Catholics on CAF have appeared to frown upon people wearing shorts and tees to Mass if they have any other articles of clothing others determine to be “more appropriate attire” for them. I’ve been in many a discussion on the topic. And no. Actually based on what I had said in regard to the other experiences I mentioned, I’d have also been pleasantly surprised, Elizabeth, if you or anyone else in a suit, dress, skirt, or otherwise had actually walked from his or her seat to greet me in my clean, unfaded tee shirt and knee length cargo shorts and white sneakers. This person was not sitting in a row directly behind me nor across from me btw which made it more special for me. I can only recall one other time anyone in the many Catholic parishes I’ve attended, actually got out of their seat to walk from where they were sitting. So yes it would have surprised me. But the fact that this man did so in his casual attire, which like me, he could have just as easily worn to an outdoor sporting event, only proved further to me that God works within us to show His love regardless of what we wear to Mass. And it is not important to Him what His servants have on.

His blessings to you along your journey and to and yours for a most Happy Easter.

 

[CMatt25]

It really upsets me when these people act like the Catholic Church is the only one to have experienced sex-abuse scandals and to have not handled them well!! Other churches had cover ups too and even higher abuse rates!!

And if someone else’s scandals makes you leave the Church then your relationship was with man- not God.

Latingirl, I’ve been pondering this further and I just wanted to add I think it’s just good if we can at least try to remember others get equally upset when some Catholics bring up other ecclesial communities or non faith groups with scandal as a defense. Many have had their faith shaken, if not shattered. And when we appear at least to “brush it off” because scandal and sin is everywhere else too, I’m not sure that helps alleviate the pain those most affected are going thru. I hope this helps a bit. God bless!

 

[Jerry_Miah]

It really upsets me when these people act like the Catholic Church is the only one to have experienced sex-abuse scandals and to have not handled them well!! Other churches had cover ups too and even higher abuse rates!!.

I think this is true. If the Protestant church were a single organization under a single roof, there would be just as many abuse cases there, I think. There is no way to count all the Protestant preachers who get caught abusing in a total sum, so it’s not a “scandal” per se.

This, however, does not excuse the Catholic church’s disastrous and inexcusable handling of the abuse scandals.

 

[Geist]

I do have to say that the one knock I have against Catholicism in general, particularly American parishes, is that they do not welcome you in to the fold. When I was worshipping with a Baptist congregation years ago, as I approached the church, greeters were there and they knew that I wasn’t a member. They welcomed me, introduced themselves, showed us around, and (gasp) gave us the contact information of the pastor and member of the welcoming committee. After services were over, there was a social event in the gymnasium and we were welcomed by even more people. They really went out of their way to open their community up and made us feel welcome. Within a couple of visits, we were invited over for dinner at a couple of homes, etc… I have never had this happen in any Catholic community I have been a part of. It was more like “Are you new? Here is the parish registration form. Your donation envelopes will be delivered to you in a couple of weeks.” If I wanted to be part of the community, I have to do out of my way to make it known that I am interested in stuff. I even contacted the parochial vicar several times about being an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, and I never heard back.

We got this when we registered for our parish as newcomers…the previous parish didn’t acknowledge or care about us when we registered there.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

We got this when we registered for our parish as newcomers…the previous parish didn’t acknowledge or care about us when we registered there.

I hear murmurs here and there that a parish has a vibrant new parishioner program, but they are far from common. Its kinda sad really.

 

[Elizabeth502]

That’s easy. My point is I only know from past experience that a number of faithful Catholics on CAF have appeared to frown upon people wearing shorts and tees to Mass if they have any other articles of clothing others determine to be “more appropriate attire” for them. I’ve been in many a discussion on the topic. And no. Actually based on what I had said in regard to the other experiences I mentioned, I’d have also been pleasantly surprised, Elizabeth, if you or anyone else in a suit, dress, skirt, or otherwise had actually walked from his or her seat to greet me in my clean, unfaded tee shirt and knee length cargo shorts and white sneakers. This person was not sitting in a row directly behind me nor across from me btw which made it more special for me. I can only recall one other time anyone in the many Catholic parishes I’ve attended, actually got out of their seat to walk from where they were sitting. So yes it would have surprised me. But the fact that this man did so in his casual attire, which like me, he could have just as easily worn to an outdoor sporting event, only proved further to me that God works within us to show His love regardless of what we wear to Mass. And it is not important to Him what His servants have on.

[bolding mine]

Actually you have not answered my question, but rather seem to be arguing indirectly that correlation is causation.

His attire was accidental to his behavior. His causal attire – whether or not it was appropriate to the occasion (and it might not have been)-- was separate from his behavior. The behavior did not make inappropriate attire (if it was) into appropriate attire. There is no intrinsic relationship between the two, and one can legimately discuss behavior apart from attire. If someone comes to any church service, or any solemn, respectful occasion, dresses respectfully but acts disrespectfully, his behavior speaks for itself. (Such as wearing a fine suit & bringing a flask of liquor and drinking from it during the Mass; such as dressing sloppily and behaving sloppily, or allowing one’s children to misbehave without correction.)

The reverse is also (obviously) similarly invalid: Appropriate (some would say, conservative) attire does not condemn a person or label him or her as lacking compassion, being without charity, or forming comparative judgments of value between himself and others. One should not prejudge personal worth or private motivations – positively or negatively – based on attire. They are two separate issues, and for some personal reason you have conflated them, and used this thread to bring up a topic not on this thread, drawing i.m.o. a highly inappropriate & invalid conclusion from externals.

Dressing informally does not make one charitable; dressing conservatively does not make one less virtuous or having suspect motivations for that attire.

 

[Cinette]

My mother left the Church when I was quite young, so I only got a little bit of the Faith when I was very young. After a long time doing a lot of different things, I returned to the Church because I thought there had to more than what I had found in generic Protestantism and decided I needed a Rosary. Bought a Rosary and also picked up a copy of Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home, and that very Sunday, I went to Mass.

I am not sure why my mother left, but I know that some years before my return, I read a book set before V2 and thought to myself that if the Church were still like that, It would be my church. I wanted to be challenged, I wanted it to be… different from what was around me.

Beiing Catholic is *hard work. *You have to want it, you have to be engaged. Just praying the Rosary (5decades) is hard work for me (and doesn’t always happen).

The thing is, I think a lot of people don’t realize that. I have certainly gone through times when I was frustrated by the fact that it wasn’t being handed to me on a silver platter. Being Catholic is like anything: you have to “practice,” and the more you practice, the better Catholic you will be.

So I think a lot of people leave because they don’t expect or accept this reality.

*I enjoyed reading what you had to say. Yes, being Catholic is hard. It is also terribly interesting, exciting and satisfying because it is the FULL TRUTH! I get very upset when some individuals try to water it down!

*

 

[Cinette]

*I would like to ask all posters their opinion!

My local Parish Priest Fr Z has been in the parish for 30 years (not a good thing). It is an affluent parish and he is a spoilt brat. I find that he says a lot of things that are theologically inaccurate and that is very bad. I am going to post a draft here for your comments. I have locked horns with him before and he calls me radical! Here goes:**

Dear Fr Z…

We attended the Stations of the Cross last Friday and you made a statement which we consider to be rather extraordinary especially since you have been the Parish priest at the Church of the Immaculate Conception for about 30 years! Surely you would have contemplated and preached on the Immaculate Conception many times.

You said that Mary was like any other typical teenager of her time - she wanted to get married and have a family!

It so happens that I am reading an interesting book called “Why Catholics are Right” by Michael Coren (convert with a Jewish Father).

Just a couple of days before I read something in his book : “Critics argue that the bible contains references to the ‘brethren of the Lord’ and therefore that Jesus had siblings. This idea brings us to the Protoevangelium of James, written probably less than sixty years after the end of Mary’s life and when numerous people who knew her and whose families knew Jesus were still alive. The text explains that as Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St Anne, chose her daughter to be a perpetual virgin and to serve God at the Jewish Temple. An elderly widower named Joseph who had children from his previous marriage was chosen as her guardian."* Further on he writes: “The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and explained that she would have a baby boy. Her response is extremely important in the context of her virginity. ‘How can this be since I have no relations with a man?’ This could mean that up to that point she had not had a sexual relationship - she was a very young woman - but the belief of her contemporaries and the early church, including some of the finest minds of the time, was that the language implied that she had taken a vow to be celibate."

I have read about this elsewhere also.

Mary was no ordinary/typical teenager Fr Harry! She was the Immaculate Conception! She was chosen and destined to be the Mother of the Messiah! How could she have been like any other teenager of her time? Also, if she were an ordinary teenager why would she agree to be betrothed to a much older man? It was intended that he would guard and protect her.

Perhaps Fr. Z…, you need to pay heed to what Benedict XVI said during a Chrism Mass in St Peter’s Basilica recently:
**
“We preach not private theories and opinions, but the faith of the Church.”

**
It would be easier for you not to respond as it would get you “off the hook” so to speak but I would really like to know why you made that statement.

I shall tell you why. Years ago while attending another Parish I befriended a convert who knew a lot more than I did about the faith. However I think I had the gift of discernment because I was often able to pick out right from wrong. She said that our Parish Priest said that it is not known if Mary did have other children. I could not accept that! Why then did the Church call Mary the Blessed Virgin, the Immaculate One, the Perpetual Virgin? I noticed that my friend sometimes made statements which were Protestant (just like your statement about Mary the teen). Today my friend is back in a Protestant church. My conclusion is that these, what you might consider to be small inaccuracies, are harmless but they gnaw at and erode the Faith.

This is why I feel that you need to answer my question. It is your duty as Parish Priest. How can Catholics come to defend the Faith if they do not ask questions and learn more about the Faith?
I look forward to your comments. Should I send it or just ignore it and pray for Fr Z

 

[wynnejj]

I look forward to your comments. Should I send it or just ignore it and pray for Fr Z

I would say that your parish priests opinion on this subject is just as valid as yours.

The Protoevangelium of James comes under the subject of “Apocrypha” in the Old Catholic Encyclopedia:

(a) Apocryphal Gospels of Catholic Origin

The Protoevangelium Jacobi, or Infancy Gospel of James, purports to have been written by “James the brother of the Lord”, i.e. the Apostle James the Less. It is based on the canonical Gospels which it expands with legendary and imaginative elements, which are sometimes puerile or fantastic. The birth, education, and marriage of the Blessed Virgin are described in the first eleven chapters and these are the source of various traditions current among the faithful. They are of value in indicating the veneration paid to Mary at a very early age. For instance it is the “Protoevangelium” which first tells that Mary was the miraculous offspring of Joachim and Anna, previously childless; that when three years old the child was taken to the Temple and dedicated to its service, in fulfilment of her parents’ vow. When Mary was twelve Joseph is chosen by the high-priest as her spouse in obedience to a miraculous sign—a dove coming out of his rod and resting on his head. The nativity is embellished in an unrestrained manner. Critics find that the “Protoevangelium” is a composite into which two or three documents enter. It was known to Origen under the name of the “Book of James”. There are signs in St. Justin’s works that he was acquainted with it, or at least with a parallel tradition. The work, therefore, has been ascribed to the second century. Portions of it show a familiarity with Jewish customs, and critics have surmised that the groundwork was composed by a Jewish-Christian. The “Protoevangelium” exists in ancient Greek and Syriac recensions. There are also Armenian and Latin translations.

There was a lot of back and forth on this topic on this thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=575365

BTW, I started this thread because my parish priest said that Joseph may have had brothers, which startled me. Yes indeed, these questions do test faith and may lead to lapsed Catholics with the idea that maybe the legend of Jesus is all fiction and the RCC is just making it up as it goes along. The best way to successfully emerge from the test is to have faith but do ask, knock and seek the truth. I think the result confirms your faith.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I would say that your parish priests opinion on this subject is just as valid as yours.

I agree. Scripture says nothing about her being special in her village prior to having the angel tell her that she was to bear the Savior.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I would say that your parish priests opinion on this subject is just as valid as yours.

The Protoevangelium of James comes under the subject of “Apocrypha” in the Old Catholic Encyclopedia:

There was a lot of back and forth on this topic on this thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=575365

BTW, I started this thread because my parish priest said that Joseph may have had brothers, which startled me. Yes indeed, these questions do test faith and may lead to lapsed Catholics with the idea that maybe the legend of Jesus is all fiction and the RCC is just making it up as it goes along. The best way to successfully emerge from the test is to have faith but do ask, knock and seek the truth. I think the result confirms your faith.

You do all please understand that the word used and that we translated as ‘brothers’ means COUSINS.

 

[CMatt25]

[bolding mine]

Actually you have not answered my question, but rather seem to be arguing indirectly that correlation is causation.

His attire was accidental to his behavior. His causal attire – whether or not it was appropriate to the occasion (and it might not have been)-- was separate from his behavior. The behavior did not make inappropriate attire (if it was) into appropriate attire. There is no intrinsic relationship between the two, and one can legimately discuss behavior apart from attire. If someone comes to any church service, or any solemn, respectful occasion, dresses respectfully but acts disrespectfully, his behavior speaks for itself. (Such as wearing a fine suit & bringing a flask of liquor and drinking from it during the Mass; such as dressing sloppily and behaving sloppily, or allowing one’s children to misbehave without correction.)

The reverse is also (obviously) similarly invalid: Appropriate (some would say, conservative) attire does not condemn a person or label him or her as lacking compassion, being without charity, or forming comparative judgments of value between himself and others. One should not prejudge personal worth or private motivations – positively or negatively – based on attire. They are two separate issues, and for some personal reason you have conflated them, and used this thread to bring up a topic not on this thread, drawing i.m.o. a highly inappropriate & invalid conclusion from externals.

Dressing informally does not make one charitable; dressing conservatively does not make one less virtuous or having suspect motivations for that attire.

Actually I did answer. Whether or not you understood or liked the answer or agreed with it or not, are other matters. But whether you liked it or agreed, is not a pressing concern I have at the moment.

I just arrived back from a morning weekday Mass. Many of us in shorts and sneakers. And at the Easter vigil I attended I had never seen so many shorts, faded jeans and sneakers at one Mass. One young lad, I’d venture a guess to be about 9 yrs old, at one point came running down the aisle during the Mass in his barefeet and bumped me on my shoulder. Neither was that a concern I had either. I personally have far more important things to focus on than whether attire might or might not be appropriate. My heart actually smiled as I was just thankful the young boy and his parents were there. I heard 2 fantastic homilies. That is more important to me. One in regard to folks worrying about a bigger car, a bigger house while overlooking their brothers and sisters, and how none of us are leaving this world alive with a U-haul. Opposite of an answer to the poor I had heard in a homily once in another parish. And today on how none of us are perfect. We’re like the creamer, Half and Half. In any case as I stated in my previous answer to you which I know to you was a non answer, but I’ll nevertheless repeat here and then I am done answering you, "God works within us to show His love regardless of what we wear to Mass". And that would include of course whether one is in shorts and a tee shirt, jeans, or yes a dress, suit, long sleeve dress shirt or tie. And that as before is part of my answer.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

. And that would include of course whether one is in shorts and a tee shirt, jeans, or yes a dress, suit, long sleeve dress shirt or tie. And that as before is part of my answer.

Sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. There’s a line that cannot be crossed when folks are at Mass. It’s called respect. I’m no friend of Obama, but you can be sure that even for that man, I’d wear a suit if he invited me to a meeting.

Obama doesn’t count? Okay. If I were to have a meeting with Timothy Cardinal Dolan, I’d not show up in cut-offs, a wifebeater, and shower clogs.

I think that “God loves me no matter how I dress” is nothing but oompah, and you can take that to the bank.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Actually I did answer. Whether or not you understood or liked the answer or agreed with it or not, are other matters. But whether you liked it or agreed, is not a pressing concern I have at the moment.

I just arrived back from a morning weekday Mass. Many of us in shorts and sneakers. And at the Easter vigil I attended I had never seen so many shorts, faded jeans and sneakers at one Mass. One young lad, I’d venture a guess to be about 9 yrs old, at one point came running down the aisle during the Mass in his barefeet and bumped me on my shoulder. Neither was that a concern I had either. I personally have far more important things to focus on than whether attire might or might not be appropriate. My heart actually smiled as I was just thankful the young boy and his parents were there. I heard 2 fantastic homilies. That is more important to me. One in regard to folks worrying about a bigger car, a bigger house while overlooking their brothers and sisters, and how none of us are leaving this world alive with a U-haul. Opposite of an answer to the poor I had heard in a homily once in another parish. And today on how none of us are perfect. We’re like the creamer, Half and Half. In any case as I stated in my previous answer to you which I know to you was a non answer, but I’ll nevertheless repeat here and then I am done answering you, "God works within us to show His love regardless of what we wear to Mass". And that would include of course whether one is in shorts and a tee shirt, jeans, or yes a dress, suit, long sleeve dress shirt or tie. And that as before is part of my answer.

You won’t get into the Vatican in shorts.