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Cinette
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*I do not understand your sentence especially the part where you state “to question the fruits by which to know by.” Can you explain please?
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saveusfromhell
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yes maybe explain this one as well hard to grasp what your saying particularly in the highlighted lineThe scandal matter may never be resolved on earth to the satisfaction of all. One side simply chalks it up to sin. Others nevertheless have concerns which can even bring into question for them fruits by which to know by. Yes others have had their scandals but it’s the Catholic Church which proclaims Herself Christ’s one and only true Church. People may question for instance when men preach the sanctity of life but then did not know better in these cases.
And the visible head of the Church on earth is a man. The bishops are all men who are believed to be the successors of the Apostles**. Priests who are entrusted to shepherd their flocks are all men. So I’m not clear how you can be in the Church and as part of the practice of your faith, not have a relationship with man along with God.**
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irishpatrick
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Yes, those are part of the parameters; however, the Church has no way to know what happens in the final moments of life for people in that situation–they might repent. That means the Church can state with 100% certainty whether any individual soul is in hell. The Church always recalls the thief on the cross…She does for instance say here who could not be saved.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/846.htm
So if someone can not be saved, be it “could not” is a tense of “can not”, where is the Church saying they go if not to hell?
It also forms the reason why we should never stop praying for people who we think might be standing in a weak situation…the Holy Spirit might work a end-of-life conversion miracle for those souls, or any soul.
We must recall that God does not want to lose anyone. It is Divine Mercy week, with Divine Mercy coming up this Sunday–we must release our trust to God’s infinite mercy.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Most don’t, that is.And the Polish is * łaski pełna*, “full of grace.” I’ll stick to the Polish since the Poles don’t leave the Church. Leaving the Church must be some Anglophone thing.
There is the Polish National Catholic Church, of course, created in reaction to the U.S. Church not allowing the Polish language to be taught in parish schools.
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Elizabeth502
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It is not hard for me to understand wanting to walk out of any relationship (one’s marriage, one’s job, one’s membership in a church) because of disillusionment, particularly if this has occurred on a personal level. (As opposed to “news stories” or general disappointment in human aspects of church life, and the manifest sin that does occur in the church.) However, there is something beyond the human dimension that is at stake in choosing to end one’s participation in Catholic Church life. One chooses then to deprive oneself of the sacramental life --the most intimate encounter we can have with our Lord before death – all because of bad witnessing by human beings and mistreatment by human beings.
Priests are not the sacraments; they are merely the instruments of those sacraments, regardless of how weak and how much a disappointment any one of them, or many of them, might be. No human being can come between an individual and his or relationship with God. God is absolute, transcending every human relationship and every power to hurt.
The congregation in the pews, regardless of how they also behave (or are presumed to think), are also unable to modify the power of the sacraments.
Romans 8:35-39
*Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? …No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that **neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ***
If you are looking to the congregation to be the mirror of divine life and the standard by which you judge your membership in the Catholic Church, you are approaching it backwards. Become yourself the mirror of divine life, by entering into the depths of Our Lord’s Passion and Paschal Mystery, through prayer and sacramental life, and then your mirror will be an irresistible attraction to that congregation, to join with you in that relationship/sacramental life. You will also, by deepening your spirituality, clarify your vision into the goodness of those people in the congregation, and into the neediness of the priest(s).
(When I say “you” I mean “we” in all the above.) It is not so much ignorance about the faith that would allow a person to deprive himself of sacramental life; rather, it is a failure in the theological virtues of faith and hope (the capability of God to transcend fallen nature anywhere). All the intellectual understanding in the world does not in itself increase our faith.
Now, if a Catholic finds the atmosphere in a particular parish – and/or the leadership (or lack thereof) of a particular pastor – so discouraging or scandalous as to present barriers to deepening that faith, then such a Catholic has an option to look at other parishes. But except in extreme cases, most of this is an excuse. For any individual, there are less inspiring parish environments and more inspiring ones, but in all of them Jesus dwells.
Priests are not the sacraments; they are merely the instruments of those sacraments, regardless of how weak and how much a disappointment any one of them, or many of them, might be. No human being can come between an individual and his or relationship with God. God is absolute, transcending every human relationship and every power to hurt.
The congregation in the pews, regardless of how they also behave (or are presumed to think), are also unable to modify the power of the sacraments.
Romans 8:35-39
*Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? …No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that **neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ***
If you are looking to the congregation to be the mirror of divine life and the standard by which you judge your membership in the Catholic Church, you are approaching it backwards. Become yourself the mirror of divine life, by entering into the depths of Our Lord’s Passion and Paschal Mystery, through prayer and sacramental life, and then your mirror will be an irresistible attraction to that congregation, to join with you in that relationship/sacramental life. You will also, by deepening your spirituality, clarify your vision into the goodness of those people in the congregation, and into the neediness of the priest(s).
(When I say “you” I mean “we” in all the above.) It is not so much ignorance about the faith that would allow a person to deprive himself of sacramental life; rather, it is a failure in the theological virtues of faith and hope (the capability of God to transcend fallen nature anywhere). All the intellectual understanding in the world does not in itself increase our faith.
Now, if a Catholic finds the atmosphere in a particular parish – and/or the leadership (or lack thereof) of a particular pastor – so discouraging or scandalous as to present barriers to deepening that faith, then such a Catholic has an option to look at other parishes. But except in extreme cases, most of this is an excuse. For any individual, there are less inspiring parish environments and more inspiring ones, but in all of them Jesus dwells.
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wynnejj
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Elizabeth, Your post is excellent and well taken. My complaint about the Catholic Church in the way it goes about explaining the faith is that it is real good at explaining the beatitudes but deficient in enumerating the commandments. It explains God’s vision but not God’s boundaries. The plea for increased reception of the Holy Eucharist, even when coupled with a plea of increased Confessions, is bad advice if it is not coupled with proscription against receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord with longstanding habits of grevious offensive errors without acknowledgement. The attitude that objectively grevious offenses can be subjectively mitigated by our own personal beliefs is itself a fundamental sin against the 1st commandment to love God above yourself & others. As Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments” without the addendum “as you see fit”. It is true that ignorance of the law mitigates the guilt of the ignorant, but not the guilt of those who seek ignorance. When the Sunday pulpit is not used as a forum to enumerate & expound on these commandments, then people are lulled into a practice of damning temple worship, as illustrated in Jeremiah 7.
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Cinette
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*We have an old priest who has been at our parish for 30 years. He is spoilt and very popular - tells jokes etc I find his theology wanting at times. The bishop sent a young newly ordained priest to assist him - this priest has a doctorate in languages (was a former lecturer at the University) and studied in Rome and the US. He was devout and knew his liturgy and theology. The old priest did not like it and had him transferred. A few people went to see the Bishop and I wrote to the bishop. The others left the Parish but I remained (the parish is very close to my home). At first I was so unhappy to look at him but I said to myself that I was not going to be intimidated. I sent him and the Parish Council copy of my letter to the bishop.
I realise that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the most precious thing and nothing will keep me away. Holy Week was magnificent - we have a fabulous choir, the Church is beautiful etc. My husband and I went to another Parish for the Vigil and Sunday Mass - not because of Fr. I heard all about the fantastic ceremony and we prayed for the Parish*/COLOR
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Lost_Sheep
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Of all my friends who are lapsed/former/ex Catholics, they all tell me the same thing: There are too many rules.
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Elizabeth502
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There were Catholics surveyed (and Catholics on this thread) who have left the Church because it is “deficient in enumerating the commandments”? I don’t read that. I read that people have left because of disappointment in human insufficiency, not because the commandments are not enumerated. This thread is a discussion about why people have left the Church, not a discussion about all of our various complaints & criticisms, including about particular parishes. One is not required to keep attending a particular parish, especially if the liturgy is unorthodox or unappealing or uninspiring. That’s an excuse.
I feel extremely lucky that I am now attending a couple of different parishes at which the priests, plural, are dedicated to homily preparation which does inspire and reach. (Certainly in the opinion of many others, not just my own.) However, I have visited many other parishes, including recently – sometimes by necessity if I have some schedule or travel problem. I have found that it is my disposition, not that of the congregation or the priest presider, that is more determinant of “what I get out of” the Mass, and what I get out of the Church resources in general, than the dispositions of others. I think if people are going to be honest, they have to look inward first. The grace is there for us, and these struggles are our opportunities to empty ourselves and then become witnesses to God’s grace, for others who may be discouraged in the pews and disheartened by the lack of witness of others.
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Rich_Olszewski
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The fallen away Catholics I know left for intellectual reasons, tending to become agnostics, or coming to believe in a transcendent God, one who created the world, but who remains completely outside of and beyond it. He started the snowball rolling down the hill, but left it to run down on its own, so to speak. This contrasts with the Christian notion that God is manifested in the world.
Your argument seems to appeal to those who accept the Catholic notion of God’s role in the world but who don’t get from the Church what they’re looking for.
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wynnejj
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Fundamentally, people leave because they look at results. If you see priests receive the Holy Eucharist daily, and there is a widespread scandal perpetrated and covered-up by priests & bishops, then one fundamentally wonders about the efficacy of the Holy Eucharist. If you see 100% of congregation go to the Holy Eucharist every Sunday and know that the parishioners publicly denounce or flout the church’s stance on contraception, sterilization and even co-habitation, then one wonders about the efficacy of the Holy Eucharist. You can “sell” the Holy Eucharist all you want, but if there is a Sunday Mass media bias that only proclaims the convenient truths of the Gospel, you “sell out” the Holy Eucharist. You have to explain why the Holy Eucharist is not working, if you want to stem the tide of lapsed Catholics.
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ishii
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Thank you for the correction, TarkanAttila. We don’t know if someone is in hell or not, but the sainst we know are in heaven.You’ve forgotten about the canonical Saints.
We know they are certainly in Heaven, because their intercession betrays their divine resting place.
But we cannot know if a soul is gone to Hell. For a soul in Hell is powerless to do anything. He cannot even die - that is, to cease existence - which is what he went to Hell to do in the first place.
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Rich_Olszewski
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As are baptized children who die before the age of reason, and people baptized on their deathbeds.
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Elizabeth502
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All this means is a very poor understanding of God, who can’t be blamed for that. Nor can the Catholic Church be blamed for that.
If a Catholic does not accept the Catholic notion of God’s role in the world, then that Catholic either lacks the theological virtue of faith, or has been poorly catechized, or both. Again, though, at some point, adult responsibility kicks in. There are Catholics on this forum who have, by their own admission, been very poorly catechized. Many of these, now adults, take adult responsibility for learning their faith. Those who us who have been well catechized still have that responsibility to keep up with our faith, and learn as much as we can, not all of which has been taught to us through grade school, secondary school, or college years.
If a Catholic does accept “the notion” (above), but “doesn’t get from the Church what they are looking for,” then my statement stands. That Catholic is looking for others to provide him what he should be seeking and modeling himself. It is entirely the opposite of what the Christian is asked to do, even scripturally.
As for intellectualism, the Church is overflowing with intellectual depth and satisfaction, for those who would look for that. There are rational proofs for the existence of God. There are also Catholic scientists whose engagement with the faith is perfectly harmonious with scientific thought. If what you’re talking about is some level of proportional emphasis on intellect (vs. spirituality), then the average Catholic will not necessarily find that at every Mass in every parish. Some parishes are more intellectually oriented than others, and some Orders are more intellectual than others (the Paulists, the Jesuits, the Dominicans). The intellectual resources within Catholicism are abundant; what you are talking about is not a lack of intellectual engagement but a lack of faith. And faith requires effort (for everyone). Wait, what a concept.
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Elizabeth502
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This statement has nothing to do with your earlier statement, that implied that people have left Catholicism because the commandments are supposedly not enumerated. Now you’re conveniently shifting to an entirely different argument: that the sacraments don’t “work,” No, individuals receive unworthily and/or do not avail themselves of the grace of the sacraments. Anyone who thinks that sacramental graces work automatically or “magically” has a very immature understanding of sacramental theology. Again, that is their fault, not the fault of the Church.
Secondly, you’re making my point for me. Catholics who leave because of “media bias” are Catholics who lack faith, and who lack objective insight. We’re not required to have faith in the media
, have faith in fallen priests who need psychiatric treatment, or have faith in supposedly uncharitable people in the pews who don’t greet strangers sufficiently well, according to “me.”
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Annabelle_Marie
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But we ARE the body of Christ…and some people have been deeply wounded by those amongst us…I don’t think we can deny that. There are those that were wounded…have questions and some of us (the Body) act like this indicates lack of faith.
Yes the sacraments are foremost but to say that people just need to ignore all the other…is short sighted…some of us were deeply wounded by the other. And as long as we never acknowledge that…I don’t see hope of bringing siblings home.
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Rich_Olszewski
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They don’t blame the Church or God. Their faith has changed, and they understand God differently than they did before as Catholics.
Indeed. My friends who have fallen away do not at all deny God’s existence as the Prime Mover.
LOL! Those people were products of the same Catholic training I was -** by the best in the business** - the Jesuits on the high school and university level.
Like the joke I posted some days ago, they lost their faith, not their minds!
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Scott_Lafrance
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I was told by an African priest visiting our parish. The summary of the Catholic Church is as simple as this:
Love God and do whatever you want.
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Elizabeth502
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Who said anything about “just ignoring” [wounds]? I didn’t say it; you are saying it. God has never asked us at any time in human history to ignore wounds, from whatever source they occur. Being wounded is an invitation to draw near to the Passion – not as some historical event of no personal contemporary value to us, but as a challenge to become one with that Passion. In the present, we all have to endure our private or public Passions. The holiest priests in the Church have been deeply wounded, by people not in religious life, and by authorities within the Church. It is said that the best healers are wounded healers, as they can relate to the wounds of others. The best healers are not the departed wounded, the wounded who abandon the faith when some of the bearers of that faith contradict the faith.But we ARE the body of Christ…and some people have been deeply wounded by those amongst us…I don’t think we can deny that. There are those that were wounded…have questions and some of us (the Body) act like this indicates lack of faith.
Yes the sacraments are foremost but to say that people just need to ignore all the other…is short sighted…some of us were deeply wounded by the other. And as long as we never acknowledge that…I don’t see hope of bringing siblings home.
The fact remains: If one leaves the Church because of disappointment in its messengers, that person is abandoning the central message.
A lot of these repeated arguments also assume that those of us making counter-arguments have not been deeply wounded & even betrayed; we have. It’s just that we have seen that leaving the Church is the opposite of the answer. It solves nothing, and merely shows us to be reliant on the wrong things & the wrong people. There is holiness out there, within the Church: find it. God is waiting for us to find it, both in people and in spite of other people.
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Rich_Olszewski
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How conveenient!!
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