Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[Elizabeth502]

When you say “not necessarily you,” you are nonetheless including me in the overall group you were referring to.

Yes, you were by trying to wriggle out of your original statement.

Which isn’t even the topic of this thread, the topic being why Catholics leave the Church. I made a statement that some leave the faith because they have lost some of their faith, and I know why they left, not why they “supposedly” left.

Rich, I’m surprised that as a lawyer, you would not understand the syntax and context of the phrase “not necessarily you.” It has nothing to do with implying that maybe, just maybe, the person uttering the phrase is casting aspersions on the pronoun “you.” This is a grammatical phrase which does not impugn in the slightest the person to whom it is addressed, as in “Some people –not necessarily you– might say that the Catholic Church is a rightwing organization.” It eliminates any implication that the person being addressed – “you” – is meant to be accused of a general statement posed by others. I am not “backtracking” because an accusation was not only not included, it was specifically excluded. That’s what the generic phrase “not necessarily you” actually means. It means the opposite of personal accusation.

It’s really clear to me that you are being merely argumentative and trying to turn an intellectual debate into some kind of personal insult campaign. It’s absurd and demeaning, frankly. You are choosing to create and hold a grudge where none can be inferred, by those who do understand the grammar. To accuse me of insulting you, and then supposedly being disingenuous about it and “contradicting” myself is pretty low. It is way, way inappropriate and off-target for this thread.

Your opinion is fine, but I can assure you that their reasons were rational and understandable.

Prove your case, Counselor, to this disbeliever in what your acquaintances assert. You have not done so. I don’t know them, but what you have said so far (about them) does not strike me as “rational.”

You are presuming that your pious argument is something that everyone will accept.

No. I’m assuming that any truly believing Catholic understands that leaving the Church demonstrates insufficient faith, if the reason for leaving is not hurt or disgust at the actions of particular persons, but some intellectual non-engagement with dogma and doctrine. We do not conquer our individual struggles with faith – which I will repeat for at least the 4th time, we all have – by leaving the font of grace which is designed to increase that faith.

Who said that leaving the Church was something wonderful? Who was trying to say that leaving was a value? I think that you are creative in impuning to others things they did not say or imply.

Check the evidence. Exhibits A-Z are the emotional “arguments” about how bad people (demonstrably bad people, wearing Roman collars and not) succeeded in driving perfectly fine Catholics out of the Church, and how that result is somehow justifiable. No, it’s not. It’s surrender to the evil actions of others and is attributing to those evil others ownership of the Church

Bottom line is that some people, for intellectual reasons among others, lose their faith and are no longer interested in the Church.

Precisely, Counselor. They have lost their faith. Only they, as individuals, can regain it. It is not so much that it is not the responsibility of others to restore that faith; it is that only the individual is capable of regaining that faith.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich, I’m surprised that as a lawyer, you would not understand the syntax and context of the phrase “not necessarily you.”

Oh, but I do, Elizabeth.

Prove your case, Counselor, to this disbeliever in what your acquaintances assert. You have not done so. I don’t know them, but what you have said so far (about them) does not strike me as “rational.”

1. I don’t have to prove anything. I said that they lost their faith to some degree or other and left the Church, for intellectual reasons mostly. These people are not emotional folks who leave because some priest was unkind to them.
2. How could what I said about them be rational or irrational? I did not give their reasons. Don’t imagine things.

No. I’m assuming that any truly believing Catholic understands that leaving the Church demonstrates insufficient faith, if the reason for leaving is not hurt or disgust at the actions of particular persons, but some intellectual non-engagement with dogma and doctrine.

That’s what I said. They lost their faith to one degree or the other, for one reason or another, left the Church, and didn’t look back. Their decision, just as your decision and mine is to stick with the Church. I don’t fault them.

Check the evidence. Exhibits A-Z are the emotional “arguments” about how bad people (demonstrably bad people, wearing Roman collars and not) succeeded in driving perfectly fine Catholics out of the Church, and how that result is somehow justifiable. No, it’s not. It’s surrender to the evil actions of others and is attributing to those evil others ownership of the Church

You and I are NOT in disagreement here. Emotional reasons aren’t good ones, in most cases.

They have lost their faith. Only they, as individuals, can regain it. It is not so much that it is not the responsibility of others to restore that faith; it is that only the individual is capable of regaining that faith.

And, the people I know have left the Church without regret and have no intention to return or to “regain that faith.” BTW, they didn’t go and join some other Christian faith. Most became agnostics along the lines of Deists believing in a transcendental God, rather than becoming atheists, though one man, a published author, Peter Heinegg, a friend, with whom I went to school, became a hard line atheist. Look him up on Amazon, or Google him, if you care to. But you’d do best not to tangle with him if you ever met him. He’s very convincing and could eat you alive. (word to the wise )

To see what you’d be up against: on Amazon by Dr. Peter Heinegg: “Putting Away Childish Things: The Virgin Birth, the Empty Tomb, and Other Fairy Tales You Don’t Need to Believe to Have a Living Faith”

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

To see what you’d be up against: on Amazon by Dr. Peter Heinegg: “Putting Away Childish Things: The Virgin Birth, the Empty Tomb, and Other Fairy Tales You Don’t Need to Believe to Have a Living Faith”

Sorry, attributed this book to Peter. Disregard this paragraph.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Sorry, attributed this book to Peter. Disregard this paragraph.

If you keep quoting yourself, people will begin to question your sanity.

 

[ishii]

But you’d do best not to tangle with him if you ever met him. He’s very convincing and could eat you alive. (word to the wise )

To see what you’d be up against: on Amazon by Dr. Peter Heinegg: “Putting Away Childish Things: The Virgin Birth, the Empty Tomb, and Other Fairy Tales You Don’t Need to Believe to Have a Living Faith”

Up against? I’m sure that the bitter doctor knows all sorts of sophistocated arguments, but his distortion of Christianity is the fairy tale and he would be no match for a Dinesh D’souza, for example. Utterly unconvincing: as CS Lewis wrote, either Jesus is God or he is a lunatic - there can be no middle ground, mushy, “Jesus was a great teacher, etc. but didn’t rise from the dead.” Sad to see a former Jesuit lose his faith. He needs prayers.

Ishii

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Up against? I’m sure that the bitter doctor knows all sorts of sophistocated arguments, but his distortion of Christianity is the fairy tale and he would be no match for a Dinesh D’souza, for example. Utterly unconvincing: as CS Lewis wrote, either Jesus is God or he is a lunatic - there can be no middle ground, mushy, “Jesus was a great teacher, etc. but didn’t rise from the dead.” Sad to see a former Jesuit lose his faith. He needs prayers.

Ishii

Proves my point that even though having lots of schooling doesn’t necessarily merit the title of Doctor.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Up against? I’m sure that the bitter doctor knows all sorts of sophistocated arguments, but his distortion of Christianity is the fairy tale and he would be no match for a Dinesh D’souza, for example. Utterly unconvincing: as CS Lewis wrote, either Jesus is God or he is a lunatic - there can be no middle ground, mushy, “Jesus was a great teacher, etc. but didn’t rise from the dead.” Sad to see a former Jesuit lose his faith. He needs prayers.

The book I cited was not his, and I apologize for that error of mine. Would he be a match for Dinesh D’Souza? Who knows? They’ve never debated.

Yes, lost his faith, is rather vocal about it, and that’s sad. Better that he just kept that to himself. That is quite unlike the others I know who simply left the faith, fell into agnosticism, and went on from there without comment.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Proves my point that even though having lots of schooling doesn’t necessarily merit the title of Doctor.

Sure, and that could apply to every man, woman, or clergyman of whatever faith who appends a PhD to his or her name.

 

[ishii]

The book I cited was not his, and I apologized for that. Would he be a match for Dinesh D’Souza? Who knows? They’ve never debated.

Yes, lost his faith, is rather vocal about it, and that’s sad. Better that he just kept that to himself. That is quite unlike the others I know who simply left the faith, fell into agnosticism, and went on from there without comment.

Dinesh D’souza is pretty sharp - have you ever heard him speak?

Have been half following the thread - it seems like so many Catholics leave the church because they were not catechized, became lukewarm and then either stopped going to church altogether or joined a protestant sect. Lots of former catholics are Mormons, evangelicals, or JW’s. The common denominator is that they didn’t really know there faith - didn’t know what they were abandoning. I suppose if you associate with more intellectual or academic types then the lapsed catholics would be more because of falling into agnosticism or atheism.

Ishii

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Dinesh D’souza is pretty sharp - have you ever heard him speak?

Yes, he is a good and well-informed speaker.

Have been half following the thread - it seems like so many Catholics leave the church because they were not catechized, became lukewarm and then either stopped going to church altogether or joined a protestant sect. Lots of former catholics are Mormons, evangelicals, or JW’s. The common denominator is that they didn’t really know there faith - didn’t know what they were abandoning.

I agree fully. Leaving the faith to become an Evangelical or Mormonism (!) is beyond discussing as far as I’m concerned. It demonstrates real ignorance both of Catholicism and of the faith they’ve gone to.

I suppose if you associate with more intellectual or academic types then the lapsed catholics would be more because of falling into agnosticism or atheism.

Just so. I’m not interested in “the priest gave bad sermons and the music at church stank” excuses, though I can sympathize with “the priest was a paederast or a thief or victimized me, a woman.”

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Sure, and that could apply to every man, woman, or clergyman of whatever faith who appends a PhD to his or her name.

So, you agree then that having a very, very expensive piece of paper hanging on the wall sometimes isn’t worth the very paper its printed on.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

So, you agree then that having a very, very expensive piece of paper hanging on the wall sometimes isn’t worth the very paper its printed on.

Yes, indeed. I was fortunate to get my J.D. as a resident of this state where my total tuition, after scholarships, ran into four figures and was paid for before I was graduated. There are horror stories of people owing close to six figures for the same thing because of their law school or status as residents of the particular state.

There’s not a degree that can’t be worthless, depending on the man or woman who has the degree.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

This thread stands as an excellent example of why some Catholics leave the church.

 

[CMatt25]

Praise God for a holy priest and wonderful laymen.

Yes men can make a world of difference in a church and on one’s faith. You can go to 3 different parishes and witness 3 different settings. Have 3 different experiences. This was basically my point earlier about how Catholics have relationships with their human shepherds as well as with God. And as you point out with laymen as well. Continued peace to you along your journey.

 

[CMatt25]

St. Stanislaus Kostka Church in Brooklyn, NY, my old parish and still my mother’s parish, is still a Polish church with half the Masses in Polish. Heck, the entire neighborhood, Greenpoint, is mostly Polish. The shops all have Polish signs and not always English ones, and even if you go to the Associated or Key Food supermarkets in the neighborhood, the cashiers will address you in Polish until you indicate that you speak only English.

Even the former Cardinal Wojtyła visited our parish on a trip to the U.S. I use my visits to NY as opportunities to use the language at some of the shops and restaurants.

My relatives in WV once had Polish and Italian Catholic churches side by side. I mean *directly *next to ea other. My blood relations were Austrian-Hungarian and if I recall correctly they usually went to the Polish. I guess maybe they felt closer culturally. Of course then a Hungarian relative married a Polish spouse and one of their offspring married an Italian and well, then there was the question where to go. Eventually but it was many yrs later, the 2 formed one parish. Tore their bldgs down and built one bldg. Where I am now the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood I know has Masses said in English, Spanish and Vietnamese. One bldg though.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

My relatives in WV once had Polish and Italian Catholic churches side by side. I mean *directly *next to ea other. My blood relations were Austrian-Hungarian and if I recall correctly they usually went to the Polish. I guess maybe they felt closer culturally. Of course then a Hungarian relative married a Polish spouse and one of their offspring married an Italian and well, then there was the question where to go. Eventually but it was many yrs later, the 2 formed one parish. Tore their bldgs down and built one bldg. Where I am now the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood I know has Masses said in English, Spanish and Vietnamese. One bldg though.

Funny, but I’ve not ever attended a Spanish Mass. I have been to several Vietnamese Masses including one at Christmas about a dozen years ago. Lovely hymns sung in that tonal language.

There are a few parishes in Brooklyn with Masses in one of the languages of India. Ain’t it great that Mass is universal, yet can be tailored to the individual parish?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Staying does not equal “ignoring the wounds.” That’s the basic fallacy here.

Similarly, leaving does not necessarily heal those wounds. At least, I have not met a single Catholic who has left, temporarily or permanently, who honestly believes that the act of leaving, in itself, healed her or his wounds. In most cases what it did was build resentment, because it left them with no outlet within the institution for expression of dismay, regret, anger, etc. What it did was make them isolated, physically and psychologically. And I will repeat: it deprived them of sacramental life, which heals our wounds. So it isolates spiritually as well, which is the greatest danger. I don’t know a single Catholic who has left who feels “resolved” about leaving. Leaving does not resolve anger and hurt (if those were the reasons for leaving, and not a refusal to work on the theological virtue of faith, a virtue which is a challenge for the devout as well as the casual or barely committed believer).

Was anyone on this thread actually processing the spiritual journey of the Church’s Holy Week of a few days ago? Hint: it was about woundedness to the point of near despair, and where to go with that, to whom to turn with that. Turning away into the darkness is not the Message of Holy Week.

And because some of us have seen the error of our ways (in that leaving solves zero and hurts only ourselves) does not mean that we have not been wounded just as deeply (or more so) than those who have left but not returned. That’s the third fallacy here. The act of departure, and the length of that, is not the measure of woundedness, or the measure of legitimate feelings of injustice. You may imagine that it is, but it isn’t.

Not sure that I ever said that leaving was a good idea or that those who stay have not been wounded.

BUT the fact remains that there are still those out there…and how do we work to heal and bring them back? Unless you are advocating that they are not worthy of coming back?

In the prodigal son story…the father goes running at to meet him…

 

[rfournier103]

I don’t know if my story qualifies me as a “lapsed Catholic,” but this is my story. When the Clergy sex-abuse scandal first came to light I was VERY angry. The only authority I hold in higher regard than my country is God, and I felt much betrayed at this total abuse of trust. I’m in Massachusetts, and in the Archdiocese of Boston the scandal was as bad here as it was anywhere. I myself was never abused, nor anyone I know personally; but the lies, the cover-ups, the silence from the Cardinal, and the refusal to admit wrong-doing made me SO ANGRY, I stopped going to Mass.

The “One True Faith” has been reduced to a punch line because bad people were allowed to become priests, and their superiors knew what was going on, and those same superiors (the Cardinal) hushed it up. Though the Archdiocese of Boston denies it, they’ve had to close NUMEROUS beloved parishes, and sell properties to pay settlements to victims. So many people were heartbroken! It has gotten to the point where people are “occupying” these churches so they won’t be shuttered and sold off. They stay in the buildings in shifts, and in some instances this has been going on for YEARS. All to save their parish. For example, parishioners have occupied St. Jeremiah’s Catholic Church in Framingham, Mass. for SIX years! They’ve written to the Vatican, and appealed to the Attorney General to block the sale.

I stopped going because I want my Church to have a strong moral authority. I want clergy I can be proud of. How can the Catholic Church expect to attract new members, retain the members it has, or even be taken seriously when it speaks about how we should live? I am sick and tired of the jokes, the finger-pointing, and the condescension about Catholicism.

All this, and Rome’s lack of will to punish these “men” publicly and severely have contributed to a lack of credibility in the Catholic Church.

I actually forgot how angry I really am until I started typing this…

I am a true and faithful Catholic, and go to Mass regularly again. I refuse to let a gaggle of molesting old men drive me out of my Church, and I take comfort knowing that those priests will most certainly suffer unspeakable punishment in hell.

Nothing has changed about how I feel, but I cannot allow men to muddy my relationship with God. I pray that we can right the ship and return our Church to the lofty position of credibility it once had.

Thank you for listening (reading).

 

[CMatt25]

People would NOT leave the Church if they truly understood what they were thinking of leaving.

Along this same line, I see all the time on CAF folks saying people would not leave the practice and become lapsed if only they had been properly catechized. Why not? Why could they not have a different understanding now or no longer have faith and belief in what they were told when they were being properly catechized in the faith?

 

[Nec5]

Along this same line, I see all the time on CAF folks saying people would not leave the practice and become lapsed if only they had been properly catechized. Why not? Why could they not have a different understanding now or no longer have faith and belief in what they were told when they were being properly catechized in the faith?

Kind of a catch 22. You’re right that some will always leave. However, the numbers may or may not be less if proper teaching was provided. That hasn’t happened for decades, maybe 50 years. So we can’t get to your point because it hasn’t been tried recently.